Claudio

Thanks John! I also particularly like the 25, it is a piece in very good conditions.

C

Dear forumites,

What do you think about these badges? How much is the real market price of such badges?

Thank you very much in advance for your precious inputs and opinions.

cordially

C

Wow! Beautiful... you can see that the crown on the RAO is correct in shape/design, material and patina. Is the ring which hold the bow (Bandschleife) on the RAO in Gold? Usually they were on the large medal bars (Grossordenschnallen) or when these awards were issued/bestowed (before WWI/1916). Nice also the unusual over-sided crown on the last ribbon; are the narrow stripes on the sides green or light blue?

Also very interesting a couple of scenes in the very well made movie "Der Hauptmann von Köpenick" with Heinz Rühmann ,  where a Sergeant (I suppose, I can't see his uniform into details) is waiting to get his well deserved promotion to Vizefeldwebel... watch from 45:40 onwards and from 55:40 to 57:30. 

When Chris asked that question (difference between a Sergeant/Wachtmeister and Vizefeldwebel), I immediately thought of these scenes in this movie (sorry I found only the German version, actors also speak with a Berliner accent). Apparently it wasn't so easy before WW1 for NCO: it took really long to get to the next promotion.

C
 

Hi Chris,

I think you can already find the answer here:

Wikipedia Vizefeldwebel (explanation in German)

 

August Wolter als Vizefeldwebel (Zahlmeisteraspirant) kurz vor seiner Beurlaubung in Straßburg 1913

In Preußen und im Deutschen Kaiserreich war der Vizefeldwebel (veraltet Vice-Feldwebel, auch überzähliger Feldwebel) ein Unteroffiziersdienstgrad bei den Fußtruppen. Ihm entsprach bei den berittenen Truppen der Vizewachtmeister. Der Vizefeldwebel rangierte zwischen dem Sergeanten und dem etatmäßigen Feldwebel und war der niederste Unteroffiziersdienstgrad mit Portepee.

Der Rang wurde 1846 in der preußischen Landwehr und in Ersatzformationen eingeführt, 1873 im gesamten Heer. In Kompanien mit nicht mehr als zwei Offizieren fungierten Vizefeldwebel als Zugführer – eine Dienststellung, die allgemein einem Leutnant oder Oberleutnant oblag.

Schon vor der offiziellen Einführung war die Bezeichnung Vizefeldwebel als militärinterne Sprachregelung für die überzähligen Feldwebel gebräuchlich. Zu überzähligen Feldwebeln befördert wurden überwiegend die sog. Einjährig-Freiwilligen in ihrer Eigenschaft als Offiziersanwärter der Reserve (Offizieraspirant) nach bestandener Offiziersprüfung. In die Reserve entlassene Sergeanten konnten ehrenhalber zum überzähligen Vizefeldwebel (bis zu dessen Einführung: überzähliger Feldwebel) ernannt werden.

Ihnen gegenüber standen die etatmäßigen Vizefeldwebel bzw. Vizewachtmeister als Berufssoldaten, zu denen Unteroffiziere und Sergeanten nach vorwurfsfreier 15-jähriger Dienstzeit befördert werden konnten. Um begriffliche Verwechslungen zu vermeiden, etablierte sich später die Bezeichnung außeretatmäßiger Vizefeldwebel für die Reserveoffizieranwärter; der Reserveunteroffizier wurde nun als überzähliger Vizefeldwebel tituliert. Wie alle überzähligen und außeretatmäßigen Dienstgrade führten sie zwar Rang und Dienstgradabzeichen des etatmäßigen Pendants, bezogen aber nicht deren höhere Löhnung.

Als Dienstgrad der Reserveoffizierslaufbahn war der Vizefeldwebel (mit bestandenem Offiziersexamen) dem Portepee-Fähnrich der Berufsoffizierslaufbahn des Heeres gleichgestellt. Die aus dem Unteroffizierstand hervorgegangenen etatmäßigen Vizefeldwebel waren ihnen nachgeordnet.

Vizefeldwebel konnten nach vierjähriger Dienstzeit in die Dienststellung eines Offizierstellvertreters aufrücken.

Der Vizefeldwebel legte die Uniform der Sergeanten an, führte zusätzlich aber den Offiziersdegen mit Portepee am Mannschaftskoppel. Der etatmäßige Feldwebel bzw. Wachtmeister führte zur äußerlichen Unterscheidung von den Vize-Dienstgraden seit 1889 eine zusätzliche Metalltresse über den Ärmelaufschlägen.

Wikipedia Sergeant (explanation in German)

 

Preußischer Sergeantenknopf

In der preußischen Armee wurde der Rang des Sergeanten 1843 wiedereingeführt, nachdem er zwischenzeitlich abgeschafft und teils synonym mit dem Terminus „Feldwebel“ verwendet worden war. Der große Adlerknopf als Rangabzeichen am Kragen, im Soldatenjargon auch Schwungrad genannt, kam erst 1846 auf.

Im Kontingentsheer des Deutschen Kaiserreichs rangierte der Sergeant nach den Portepee-Unteroffizieren und stand zwischen dem Corporal bzw. Unteroffizier und dem Vizefeldwebel. Ein Unteroffizier konnte frühestens nach 5 1/2 Dienstjahren zum Sergeanten befördert werden. Allerdings war der Sergeant kein regulär zu durchlaufender Dienstgrad zwischen dem Unteroffizier und dem Vizefeldwebel; zum Sergeanten rückten lediglich längerdienende Funktions-Unteroffiziere (z. B. als Sanitäts-Sergeant, Ausbilder oder Korporalschaftsführer) auf. Ein Infanterieregiment hatte etwa 48 etatmäßige Sergeanten.

I hope this can help.

Cheers,

Claudio

For better comprehension about the dimensions of the ribbon bar presented here above, I shot a photograph of it close to a two row ribbon bar with 10mm ribbons and devices...

3 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

I think you have a point there.  The Olympia eagle is identical to Milch's Olympia eagle.  Actually I think your eagle is in better shape because Milch's eagle's beak is chipped off. 

You know... I think sometimes when too much lighting is used to photograph these old items, it might make them look a little too "new" and a little bit "cheap".  That could be what happened here with your pics of the bar.  Simi    

Thank you Simi, for the better comparing pictures and your comment...

On 05/12/2019 at 11:34, Claudio said:

On 05/12/2019 at 11:34, Claudio said:

 

 

 

Here is the GFM Milch's ribbon bar to compare, especially the enemaled white eagle device on the Olympia-Ehrenzeichen ribbon... mind you that the ribbons on Duke Carl Eduard's are smaller than the ones on GFM's Milch ribbon bar.

Hello,

Here's Konteradmiral Hugo Caanitz brief biographical data. As you can see he served quite a lot in the Baltic area, it is possible that he could receive an order of a bordering country on the Baltic sea. Usually after the long service awards predominantly foreign awards were put on the ribbon bar. But it could be also possible that he wore his DRK award in the last position on his ribbon bar. Strange nevertheless...

I post also a picture of him discussed in another thread on the WAF (see below).

BR

C

PS: I sincerely hope that the owner of this picture hasn't anything against for me posting it.

How big is the miniature on the ribbon? 16mm?

15 hours ago, ixhs said:

I have still problems with the quality of the devices. But if you like it - why not.

I don't have any problems with that... considering that the ribbons are 8mm wide (!!!) and the devices extremely small (8mm), it's impossible that they are as accurate as normal and bigger devices put on 15 mm wide ribbons. Of course if you enlarge the very detailed picture I took, it looks as if the devices are crudely made, but taking into account that they are so small, you can't pretend that the level of detail is similar or better than on bigger devices. Furthermore the devices from the 7th to 12th and 14th ribbons are very likely custom made, because they are very rare to be found. The swords devices are WWII (war) time types as this bar was put together after 1940 as the Duke got his KVK2X.

In my collection (I'm collecting since 40 years) I have different types of swords devices... they can vary from very detailled and high quality pre WWI silver devices to more crudely made WWII types.

The most important thing is that I'm happy with this ribbon and that I'm going to keep it anyway.

Best regards,

C

Hi everybody!

It just arrived... it took ages, but the quality is really mind blowing. Now I’m 100% convinced it belonged to the Duke...

Enjoy  the picture!

cheers,

C

I forgot to say that the lenght of the ribbon bar is only 11 cm!!!

Great collection Jason! That’s quite a spectacular array of Saxon and high officer LW ribbon bars!!!???????

Yes, I totally agree with ixhs...  It's quite uncommon to see a WWI bar with lots of WWI related decorations, but no Iron Cross 2nd class; so he must have been a 100% homefront type of guy.

Nice bar nonetheless!

18 hours ago, webr55 said:

I'd say this can only have belonged to Carl Eduard. Such an amount of carefully, specially made devices like this you only find on a bar that belonged to the head of a (former) ruling house. No. 11 definitely is the 1897 British Victoria Jubilee medal, which he probably chose to wear as he felt a personal attachment to Queen Victoria even during wartime. The only thing that puzzled me first was the lack of his own WW1 Carl Eduard Medal. But as the close-up of his photo in the car above shows, he sometimes chose to not wear this medal, and went just for orders instead of medals.
There is also a simple explanation why Bulgarian and Turkish awards came before other German ones: They were wartime awards, which he placed before all other non war-related ones.  
What an amazing bar, congratulations Claudio!

Thank you! ???

IMHO this ribbon bar looks like a typical Godet, which I have several in my collection, ribbon and medal bars.

The hinge of the pin on reverse like also the fabric and kind of stitching does all look like the even the same person who worked at Godet did that. This guy had at least 15-20 or even more different uniforms on which on each of them had different medal or ribbon bars being made by different vendors.

I think even the crossed swords devices they look even the type Godet used during WW2, of lesser stamped good quality. This bar would have been put together not sooner of 1940/41 (see that KVK2). It would be interesting to know when the duke got it (date of bestowal). In the end they took whatever it was still available in war and I said it before, in war I’m pretty sure they won’t have used metal devices like crossed swords in silver they might have used before, during and right after WW1.

Bottom line is that I’m quite satisfied with this my purchase, more than some others.

C

Hi Pierce!

If that blue white striped ribbon with crown device is a British Jubilee medal, then it narrows completely down to a unique possible wearer... I only was a bit puzzled to see a couple of Saxon Duchies ribbons they might have on this bar as well... especially that black yellow ribbon with the year device Ovale silberne Herzog Carl Eduard Medaille mit Krone ( home war merit medal with year of bestowal). But again in this case the original owner of this unique ribbon bar decided only to wear these orders and no medals.

Thank you for all your inputs.

C

11 hours ago, P.F. said:

A fantastic ribbon bar. If I was to hazard a guess I would say one of the bars of

Herzog Carl Eduard von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha

Naturally I thought of him first, too, but Charles Edward (Carl Eduard von Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha) was awarded of many more and completely different awards... there are lots of pictures of him wearing different medal and ribbon bars, but no-one with that particular combination like I have shown in my thread.

Carl Eduard wore such a wide variety of miniature ribbons bar, double rows ribbon bars, single normal sized ribbon bars,  full sized medal bars... and he also wore lots different uniforms, Old Imperial Officer/General, Freikorps, SA, NSKK, Allgemeine-SS (black), Head of the Reichsluftschutzbund or as President of the German Red Cross uniforms... and many more. I'm posting some of the photographs with him, just to show you all, how many uniforms and different sets of medal/ribbon bars he had. Just incredible! But unfortunately, I don't think it is "my guy"... ?

11 hours ago, 922F said:

Tend to agree with P.F.  Missing ones may mislead but this seems to be leaning towards one of his Red Cross oriented bars -- missing Hungarian Horthy-era Red Cross special decoration.

Yes, strange but not impossible or maybe he did not wear all the ribbons of the decorations he was bestowed.

Thank you all for your interesting point of views and comments.

Claudio

Yes and no, the German Social welfare decoration was also the successor order of the German Red Cross decoration... and these Japanese Red Cross decoration you could easily be bestowed by giving an important amount of money as charity to the Japanese Red Cross organisation. Besides Japan was an important ally of the triple steel anti communist pact of Germany/Italy/Japan.

On the ribbon bar are:
 

1. Prussia, EK1914 2 Kl.
2. 3rd Reich, KVK 2. Kl. with swords
3. Saxony Kingdom, Order of St. Heinrich (RK or medal? both possible)
4. Saxon Duchies, Saxon Ernestine House Order (probably RK 2nd or eventually 1st class)
5. 3rd Reich, FEK (aka Hindenburg cross)
6. Bulgaria Kingdom, Cross of military merit on Bravery ribbon
7. Ottoman Empire,  Imtiyaz Medal with crossed swords (Bravery Medal)
8. 3rd Reich, Deutsches Volkpflege-Ehrenzeichen (Social Welfare Decoration), highest class (Breast star)
9. 3rd Reich, Luftschutz-Ehrenzeichen (Air Defence Decoration), highest class (1st class)
10. 3rd Reich, German Olympic Decoration, very likely highest (neck) class because of the enamelled eagle
11. Not sure: Greece Kingdom, Order of the Redeemer
12. Italy Kingdom/Fascist Era, Order of the Saints Mauritius & Lazarus, highest class (Breast star)
13. Japan, red cross decoration
14. Hungary, National Order of Saint Stephan, highest class (Breast star)

15 minutes ago, 1812 Overture said:

EK2（I am more curious about how there is no Nazi eagle?）、KVK2、Saxony St. Henry Order 、Saxony Ernestine Order、Hindenburg medals, Bulgarian military achievements、Osman Im Diaz Medal、Nazi German Social Welfare Commander orders breast star, air defense level order、Berlin 1936 Olympics order、I am not very sure about this, I feel that it is the Italian military merit cross.、Italy Saint Maurice Big Cross Breast Star、Japanese Red Cross member medal、May be Hungary (the last one)。

I hope someone can understand my lame English. 

You were by seconds quicker than me...

Dear forumites!

After a long pause I’m happy to show my latest acquisition: a beautiful Godet made ribbon bar with lots of exotic miniature devices and narrow ribbons (10mm).

Can this be id’ed? This certainly belonged to high ranking government functionary or aristocratic VIP.

Thank you in advance for inputs and opinions.

Best regards

C

3 hours ago, Solomon said:

Haha...it´s "only" Schaumburg-Lippe, so I´m pretty relaxed.
 

I have the (incomplete) rolls for Schaumburg-Lippe here, but there are already more than 20 possible candiates (incl. Adolf Krauß), who got beside the golden merit cross also the silver one.
So the identification of this bar might be not possible.

Regards
Roman

Hi Roman! 

I knew that you’re more a Lippe-Detmold kind of collector ?

I’m a bit surprised that there were so many possible candidates...

Thank you anyway for looking into it.

BR

Claudio

Nice stuff!!!! Do the ribbon bars come with name’s attributions?

4 hours ago, drspeck said:

One I had not yet posted...

Very, very nice ribbon bar! My compliments... ?

The two bars are almost identical for what concerns the style of mounting and the type of red fabric on the reverse. But for sure there are not many bars like these ones or even with the very same exclusive Schaumburg-Lippe connection. It could be that the original wearer had two of them: that is nevertheless strange because one he would have mounted it as a Frackspange (tuxedo bar) and the other one as ordinary bar. 

The holes on the back are just superficial moths damage to the fabric.