Yankee

Hello Gentlemen Can anybody tell me if this 4th class MVO is a clean example or it had swds and was removed at a later date. I understand the lower grades are more rare without swds and they can be removed to increase the value. Is there any secret that can be easily identified if this is the case in my situation. I was unaware that this happens till a friend brought this to my attention. I'm hoping somebody can educate me and all others in MVO's Sincerely Yankee

Hi Red Eagle Nice to see an old friend, a beautiful orginal in the scarce 2nd model. Thanks for sharing Enjoy Yankee

Hi Schie I have noticed on some of the German State Orders more then one color gold being applied to the badges. I was never sure it was done on purpose but as you say it sure makes a "beautiful contrast" so now I know never an accident. A fantastic example is the Oldenburg House Order Peter Friedrich Louis where the cross is one color and the crown another. Many examples too are the swords. I think Russia was the largest user of pink gold, nearly all their older orders have that and it is a marvel to see. I will scan an old picture of a early SEHO Knight that was at auction. I make big mistake not trying to bid on it as you can see it is a beautiful example in that dark red color. Thanks a bunch for your insight on the gold content. Sincerely Yankee

Hi Michael We did get a bit off topic, try to correct it. The two gold Seho's that emedals has seem nice, they are 2nd model, knight 1st class. If a choice always buy the one in better condition. Normally ones with swords are more sought after except Bavaria MVO. Purchase a Jorg Nimmergut price guide book, to get a ball park figure. Better to get a 2nd opinion, no expert on the Saxon Duchies. Good luck Sincerely Yankee

Hi Schie Many many thanks pointing to country of origin, with that case it threw me a loop. I noticed the Bavarians too like having trifold ribbons perhaps copying the Austrian style but it was not consistent. I guess it was up to the individual wearer how he choose his style of ribbon mounting. Actually the order fits rather well inside, ribbon does reach the edge ( if I extend it ) I have two other Rothe cases also with gold emboss crowns, that are foreign awards but the inside lids are marked Rothe. Perhaps Rothe just supplied the cases to the German manufacturer that is why they are not marked. I've noticed the early made knight badges have a wide arm and the gold sometimes is red/brown tint. Perhaps different gold standards back then. Should any of the 1st model or 2nd model gold badges be hallmarked? I know with the Kingdoms generally are but many of the Duchies don't seem to mark their orders in any way. Thanks for all your help. Sincerely Yankee

Rothe ????????????

Hi Schie Thanks for pointing out their participation in the German State market & making me aware of the fact. Usually when I hear the word Rothe on foreign made orders I immediately think of collectors copy and cringe. Exception are the Grand Duchy of Tuscany whose family in exile had commissioned Rothe and they are as well made as the Italian examples. The badge has no markings, case also none. Usually marked with Rothe & Neffe. Very early cases 1860 only Rothe without Neffe (his nephew) I'll send out some scans. I think the case is by Rothe because of the color, shape & texture. I Took a look at the SEHO Commander and find it interesting, certainly a foreign made one. The Lions between the arms are too small, they do not connect to both arms. It seems possibly the manufacturer had ran out of Lions for commander size and substituted them for knight size Lions explains why they do not reach fully across. I'm no expert on this order, maybe it is a German made one and thrown into an Austrian case that just happens to fit. I'm hoping you can tell me if it is of typical german workmanship or possibly be a Rothe made example. The centers are well executed in gold, most likely before WWl. Thanks Sincerely Yankee

Hi SchieDo you know if the SEHO Knight's were also made by Rothe ? I orginally thought all SEHO's were of German make and some early ones made in France. I have a knight in what seems to be a Rothe case. Thought case was wrong but now not so sure. Lions are rather small, however well detailed. Any info would be appreciated Sincerely Yankee

No worries thanks for all your kind help. I'm sure a 40 year service decoration will be a challenge to find especially from that time period. Sincerely Yankee

Hi David The prior owner stated that he was awarded the badge in 1851 but without award document I could not understand how he came to that conclusion. Never questioned him further on that point , left it at that. Both his diaries are inscribed Schuch commandant to 3 Infanterie Regiment Prinz Carl Von Bayern ( other diary Christian name Michael as well ) . So these must be his war diaries for 1870 ( plenty of crosses next to names )for I do not see any other years entered only months and days. I think you hit the nail on the head, Bavaria intervention at that time and our man must have been there. Prussians were pissed off at this, almost blown to a full scale war. Thanks to you and Glenn for putting the pieces together in this puzzle. Sincerely grateful Yankee

Hi DavidNo family connection at all, just a student of history hoping to preserve his memory. His early demise explains why the diaries have blank plages - that had been a mystery to me. I suppose to find his award documents would be extremely difficult, most likely lost in time. Sincerely Yankee

Hi Glenn What an absolutely amazing book list Never seen one of those books before. Would you have a picture of a 40 year service decoration to show? Sincerely Yankee

Hi David Yes, absolutely send you a picture. Have it out to you in just a little bit. Without the award document never certain that diaries & order was to same man. Luckily Glenn's research stated he was awarded the Wilhelm Order, must be his then.

Third class St. Alexander ( commander grade ) always in green enamel. The higher & lower classes in white enamel. Hope it helps.

Hi David Thanks for confirming it would be a Bavarian long service. I already have his Wilhelm Knight, unfortunately I do not have his award document. I'm a bit surprised 40 years in the service and no other orders ( Bavaria ). Sincerely Yankee

Hi David Thanks for that excellent idea , just hope the archives were not destroyed in the last war. If able to obtain a foto of him, let you know and send one out to you. Can I assume the 40 year service medal is Bavarian? Like to find the medals to complete the group. Sincerely Yankee

Hi Glenn I really appreciate all the info, your a genius. Really fantastic to know something about the man. Certainly his diaries, holding his Hessian Wilhelm Knight. Do you know by chance what year it would have been awarded? Do you know how I would be able to obtain a photograph of Oberst Schuch? Many Many thanks for all your kind help. Yankee