Carol I

I only have general information about this medal. It was established on 5th of June 1878 and was awarded to all mobilised personnel, irrespective whether they took part to operations across the Danube or remained north of the Danube, as well as to civilian personnel supporting the operations (e.g., civilian medical personnel caring for the wounded) and local militia units involved in operations.

4 hours ago, lambert said:

Hi Carol .

These are the photos you asked me, I believe to be from the postwar period 1916-18?  I guess..

Lambert .

Thanks for the photos, Lambert. They are very good to learn about the details of this order. The absence of the gold edges on the ribbon indicate that your cross is from 1917-1938.

On 17/07/2017 at 07:18, Igor Ostapenko said:

can you move this topic to correct forum ?  

I think it would be easier if you pose the question in the other section, too.

10 hours ago, Igor Ostapenko said:

Sheinfeld ?

Yes, the 6th document has this spelling (misspelling?).

1 hour ago, Igor Ostapenko said:

Thank you ! 

Who need copy's of these documents in 1940 ? And why ? 

( I have simple Romanian, I was born in small town Reni on Danube  )

Given that one of them referred to the naturalisation of David Seinfeld in 1878, I guess they were documents supporting the Romanian citizenship of one of his descendants. 

3 hours ago, new world said:

David Seinfeld ...He has to be related to Jerry Seinfeld from famous TV show!

In one document the name is spelled as "Şeinfeld" with the first letter being read /ʃ/.

It is quite a lot to translate, but in essence this is a collection of legal copies of documents regarding the participation of a Jewish sergeant, David Senfeld/Seinfeld from Roman, to the Independence War. Apparently, he had received the Silver Military Medal and the Defenders of the Independence Medal in 1878, the Russian Commemorative Medal in 1881 and the second class of the Faithful Service Medal in 1883. He was naturalised as a Romanian citizen in 1879.

4 hours ago, Igor Ostapenko said:

not correct forum ? 

Yes, Romania is naturally placed in the "Central & Eastern European States" section.

Lambert, can you post a good image of the cypher of Queen Maria? Thanks in advance.

4 hours ago, Cartaphilus said:

Hello Carol.

 

Could you explain us what are the differences between 1917 and 1938 versions of this awards?

 

Thanks.

The gold edges on the ribbons were introduced in 1938.

The “ΑΩ” on the obverse suggests a church connection. What are the markings on the reverse?

No problem, David, with the misunderstanding. I agree that authenticity could be hard to prove in many cases and for that very reason one needs to continuously study collection pieces to observe and compare details and weed out doubtful pieces or combinations. Regarding restoration, some parts could indeed be hard to find and I would advise a correct replacement ribbon to a period, but wrong one. Good luck with your search.

2 hours ago, camelneck said:

I never said my Order of the Crown award "should have the peacetime ribbon".  That is an assumption that you made.

I think there must have been a misunderstanding because this is what you wrote:

21 hours ago, camelneck said:

However, I have an Order of the Crown (Type 2 or WW2 variety) and it is on an incorrect ribbon.  It is on the peacetime ribbon with rosette for Type 1 (WW1) Order of the Crown, instead of the peacetime ribbon for Type 2 (WW2) Order of the Crown.

I understand now that you must have the wartime insignia with swords through the centre of the cross.

2 hours ago, camelneck said:

In fact, the dealer who sold me this Type 2 Order of the Crown is notorious for buying naked medals and dressing them up with the closest ribbon that is readily available to him, which in this case was a Type 1 Romanian Order of the Crown ribbon with rosette. Since there is a very good chance that the person (likely the dealer) who put this improper Type 1 peacetime ribbon on my award had no idea whether the original ribbon was a Type 2 peacetime ribbon, a Type 2 1938 Wartime ribbon, or a red-blue battlefield (Military Virture) ribbon, it is improper to make the assumption that this is a peacetime award and that I must replace it with Type 2 peacetime ribbon.  What if this award came with black and white WW1-era iron cross ribbon?  It wouldn't mean I would have to replace it with black, white, and red WW2-era iron cross ribbon.

Some dealer practices are indeed questionable, to say the least, and one should strive to restore the award to its original condition, including matching the ribbon with the award. 

2 hours ago, camelneck said:

If I can find a Type 2 peacetime ribbon complete with a matching rosette, I'll gladly use that ribbon instead of the other two ribbons that I have already purchased.

This puzzles me again. I do not understand how using a peacetime ribbon for a wartime insignia would be better than using the existing ribbon. Both are wrong ribbons for the wartime insignia.

This being said, I wish you good luck to your search for the proper wartime insignia. One solution would be to look for crosses in very poor condition, but with the right ribbon.

2 hours ago, camelneck said:

Actually, Romania signed the Tripartite Pact on November 23,1940 so one could argue that they became involved in WW2 in 1940 although they didn't join the invasion of the Soviet Union until June 1941.

One could argue that Romania did get involved much earlier when it allowed the passage of the Polish treasury and elements of the Polish army, but I was referring to the issuance of declarations of war in 1941. 

14 hours ago, camelneck said:

Thanks a lot Carol.  I thought I remembered seeing some rosettes on the military virtue (wartime) ribbon (as you posted).  I have an Officer's Class Order of the Star award (just like the one in the photo that you posted) except mine is on the peacetime ribbon (red with silver stripes) and it has a rosette. 

However, I have an Order of the Crown (Type 2 or WW2 variety) and it is on an incorrect ribbon.  It is on the peacetime ribbon with rosette for Type 1 (WW1) Order of the Crown, instead of the peacetime ribbon for Type 2 (WW2) Order of the Crown.  I have found and bought two types of replacement ribbons for this award--a wartime (non-battlefield) ribbon with gold edges and the military virtue or battlefield ribbon (red with blue edges).  However, since both of these ribbons require rosettes when they are used with an Officer's Class medal, I need to find a rosette for at least one of these 2 ribbons.  Anybody have any rosettes for sale?

I am not quite sure what award you have and what ribbon you are looking for. You first mention that the award should have the peacetime ribbon, but then you say that you have two wartime ribbons for which you are looking for rosettes. You also seem to refer to Type II and WWII interchangeably, but this is in fact not the case as Type II awards were in use between 1932 and 1947, while WWII lasted from 1941 (for Romania at least) to 1945. Please note that for the Order of the Crown you have a similar layout as for the Order of the Star I illustrated earlier, with civilian insignia, peacetime military insignia and wartime insignia.

On 2017-6-17 at 07:32, oamotme said:

9. Rumania – Order of the Crown of Rumania, Grand Officer, 2^nd Class.

Thanks for posting the images of the miniature chain. Please note however that award no. 9 is in fact the Order of the Star of Romania in Commander class. It is also interesting to note that it is a type I badge with a type II ribbon. I wonder what might have caused the confusion. Maybe the manufacturer found in a haste only the description of the old type I of the award?

13 hours ago, camelneck said:

Hi,

I have a question regarding Officer's Class awards and ribbons.  Suppose the photo showing the 4 silver Knight's Cross of Order of the Star were actually 4 gilded Officer's Cross of Order of the Star.  I assume the first 2 awards (leftmost) would have rosette's on the ribbon.  However, in regards to the two remaining (rightmost) award, would they have a rosette since they are on war ribbons??   I am most concerned about award #4 (red-blue ribbon) since it is a Battlefield ribbon. 

I remember reading somewhere that when a 4th Class (Officer's Class) Bulgarian Military Merit Award is suspended from the light blue with silver stripes (wartime or bravery ribbon) that the wartime/bravery ribbon does not have a rosette.  I wondered if this applies to Romanian awards hung from either the wartime or battlefield ribbons.

David

Hi David,

Romanian orders in Officer class always had the rosette, irrespective of being peacetime or wartime awards. Please see below an Officer's Cross of the Order of the Star of Romania with Swords on Military Virtue ribbon with the corresponding rosette.

23 hours ago, new world said:

Nice award, Type 1, civil division.

Looks fine to me.

I have seen several badges with these features. They appear to have poorer quality in comparison to other badges, which might indicate lower quality WWI or post-war production, but this is just my feeling as I know of no research to prove this.

On 2017-6-4 at 21:11, paja said:

Medal of Cultural Merit also existed, if I remember well in two classes. They were also being worn on different types of ribbons depending on the category and have two types with Carol II or Mihai on the front side.

Indeed, the medal was established together with the order and was awarded in two classes, 1st (in gold) and 2nd (in silver).

On 2017-6-4 at 20:35, 922F said:

Owain,

Royal Romanian medals for cultural achievement existed before establishment of the Order.  Usually known as  "Bene Merenti" Medals for Sciences and Arts (1876-1931) they are sometimes confused with being part of the Order.  My understanding is that the Order replaced the medals so that the medals were not awarded after 1931.   The medals are reported in both silver and gold [gilt] possibly indicating degrees of merit.

Three medals were superseded in 1931 by the Order and Medal for Cultural Merit: Bene Merenti, Rewarding the Works for Education and Rewarding the Works for the Church. 

On 2017-6-5 at 11:41, paja said:

Miniature is Carol II type.

Paja is right, the miniature is Carol II type.

Actually there is an easy way to distinguish the models: Carol II wears a hat and Mihai is bareheaded.

2 hours ago, oamotme said:

This is most informative and interesting - thank you. The designation of category by ribbon must be fairly unique. I now know that the miniature is a Knight 2nd Class for Literature. I suspect the answer is 'no' but I must ask, are there lists of the recipients of this award?  I believe the recipient of this particular award was a French national and he also received the Order of the Star of Rumania. Again many thanks.

I do not know of any published lists. However, the Chancellery of Orders was at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs during that period, so I suspect some lists could exist in their archives.

I have found some further details. The number of categories was not the same throughout the history of the order. At establishment it had only 8 categories, but between 1937 and 1940(1) it had one extra category for activities in Straja Tarii. The ribbons were:

Category A, literature: white ribbon with purple edges

Category B, science: white ribbon with green edges

Category C, arts, music and theatre: white ribbon with orange edges

Category D, general culture: white ribbon with blue edges and a thin green stripe in the middle

Category E, religion: red-blue-red ribbon (equal widths)

Category F, school: white ribbon with thin red stripes on edges and in the middle

Category G, scouting and sport: light blue ribbon with black edges

Category H, social works: purple ribbon with green edges

Category I, Straja Tarii: white ribbon with blue edges

In 1937, scouting was taken out of category G and included in the new category I.

36 minutes ago, oamotme said:

On line I have seen blue/purple or red crosses (breast badges) with our without crowns and I have also seen gilt and silver medals - are these the knight grades? Is there list of the different ribbons applicable to each category? Is the Commander a neck badge? How scarce are these awards?

This is indeed a rather scarce order. It was established in 1931 to reward achievements in various fields of culture, arts and science. The cross of the knight 2nd class was silver without crown and worn on the chest, the cross of the knight 1st class was silver with crown and worn on the chest, the officer's cross was gold with crown and worn on the chest and finally the commander's cross was worn on the neck. The cross of the order was enamelled purple irrespective of category. Two versions exist with respect to the effigy of the monarch in the centre, Carol II (1931-1940) and Mihai (1940-1947). The order had indeed different ribbons according to category, but I do not have my references at hand for further details. The order was disbanded after the fall of monarchy in 1947. An order with the same name was established in 1961 during communist time and disbanded with the fall of the communist regime.

The old order was revived in 2000 in the current national system of orders, with a similar purple badge and the organisation in categories identified by different ribbons.

23 hours ago, lambert said:

For bravery ? Thank P.F.

Lambert

You have a type II wartime Knight's Cross with a type I ribbon. The photos appear to show different colours of the cross and the crown, possibly indicating disparate pieces.

12 hours ago, nickstrenk said:

I am glad you liked it.Number 593.

Thanks!

Very nice, Nick. Can you post a better (larger) image of the document? What is the number of its decree?

1 hour ago, P.F. said:

Does this article say he was the King's honorary adjutant between 1930-1940?

Yes, it says he was the honorary adjutant between 1930-1940 and the king's military attaché in Germany.