Kriegsmarine Admiral

Update on number 8!

It is Vizeadmiral Walter Engelhardt and NOT Wilhelm Souchon!

Numbers 2 (Konteradmiral) and 12 (Vizeadmiral) still unknown...

1 hour ago, Glenn J said:

Korvettenkapitän Bastian's 1924 award of the SW2b is shown in the 1925 Swedish State Calendar .

Regards

Glenn

 

Thank you very much!

Do you perhaps know which awards do these abbreviations for Karl Wedding represent?

RAO2EXXRs2, RAO4X, KO2, DA, China Tientsin, BH, HH, LüH, OK1, OK2a, GM3, SMK1, DtEDM, Flandern, Kyffh, UKDM

On 08/02/2013 at 22:03, Daniel Krause said:

Hello Wayne,

I try so. Now 75 in the list...

Sorry for all the abbreviations :-)

 

Greetings

Daniel

 

 

Bastian, Max KL Amazone, AStO Finnl, 38 Adm KVKRKX, HOH3X, BH, HH, LüH, MMV2, WHDA1, FinnFK2X, ÖM3K, SW2b 24

Wedding, Carl KzS, VA 2.MarD RAO2EXXRs2, RAO4X, KO2, DA, China Tientsin, BH, HH, LüH, OK1, OK2a, GM3, SMK1, DtEDM, Flandern, Kyffh, UKDM

Hello, can you tell me what is your source for Bastian's SW2b? It is not listed in the Ranglisten I own (1914, 1916, 1918 or any other Reichsmarine Ranglisten).

Also, can someone please write the full names of Wedding's awards?

Many thanks!

This is a thread I started a while ago on the Axis history forum, but had no luck there.

My goal is to identify the Admirals on these photos.
This is the ceremony of Erich Raeder being promoted to Großadmiral on board the Scharnhorst in Wilhelmshaven on 1 April 1939. The date is important to narrow down the search. Also the "Tirpitz" was launched the same day.
I hope you can help. Open the photos in a new tab to zoom them in a bit. They are possibly placed in seniority order. Feel free to correct any mistakes and comment below if you have any ideas.

1 Admiral Conrad Albrecht (promoted the same day to Generaladmiral)
2 ???
3 Hafenbaudirektor Karl Tiburtius
4 ???
5 ???
6 Vizeadmiral Friedrich Götting
7 ??? (face barely visible)
8 ???
9 Possibly Marineoberbaudirektor Prof.Dipl.Ing. Hermann Burkhardt ??? (he is ID'd on a different photo from the same date, the launching of the Tirpitz)
10 Vizeadmiral Hans-Herbert Stobwasser ??? (I don't think he is Stobwasser)
a ??? (again he is too short so the face isn't visible)
b Vizeadmiral Günther Guse
c ???
d Vizeadmiral Hermann von Fischel
e ???
f Vizeadmiral (Ing.) Hans Fechter
g Vizeadmiral Hermann Densch
h ???
i Vizeadmiral Wilhelm Marschall
j Charakter als Vizeadmiral Ernst Wolf
k Charakter als Vizeadmiral Kurt Aßmann
Admiral between k and l ??? (barely visible)
l Konteradmiral Heinrich Ancker ??? (I am not sure about this one either)
m Konteradmiral Witold Rother
n Konteradmiral Raul Mewis
o Konteradmiral Otto von Schrader ??? (pretty sure it isn't von Schrader)
p Konteradmiral Werner Grassmann
q Konteradmiral Günther Lütjens
r Konteradmiral Otto Schniewind
s Konteradmiral Conrad Patzig
t Konteradmiral Otto Hormel ??? (again, not sure about this one)
u Vizeadmiral Willy von Nordeck (he can be seen in detail on the last photo of this post)

To help ID the rest of the Admirals I compiled a list of all the Admirals that held either the Konteradmiral, Vizeadmiral, Admiral or Generaladmiral rank (or Charakter of those ranks) as of 01 April 1939 (i.e. the date these photos were taken) and were active at that time in the Kriegsmarine. I also wrote in the brackets the ones already identified on the photo:

Alfred Saalwächter, Admiral
Conrad Albrecht (ID number "1"), Admiral
Hermann Boehm, Admiral
Karl Witzell, Admiral
Otto Schniewind (ID "r"), Konteradmiral
Otto Schultze (he was placed at the disposal of the Kriegsmarine, not in active service), Admiral
Rolf Carls, Admiral
Walter Warzecha, Konteradmiral
Wilhelm Marschall (ID "i"), Vizeadmiral
Conrad Patzig (ID "s"), Konteradmiral
Erich Zieger, Konteradmiral (Ing.)
Eugen Lindau, Vizeadmiral
Günther Guse (ID "b"), Vizeadmiral
Günther Lütjens (ID "q"), Konteradmiral
Hans Fechter (ID "f"), Vizeadmiral (Ing.)
Hermann Densch (ID "g"), Vizeadmiral
Hermann Mootz, Konteradmiral
Hermann von Fischel (ID "d"), Vizeadmiral
Hubert Schmundt, Konteradmiral
Karlgeorg Schuster, Vizeadmiral
Max Bastian, Admiral
Otto Hormel (ID "t", I am not sure about this one being Hormel, any ideas?), Konteradmiral
Otto von Schrader (ID "o", I am not sure about this one being von Schrader, any ideas?), Konteradmiral
Paul Fanger, Konteradmiral
Raul Mewis (ID "n"), Konteradmiral
Werner Fuchs, Konteradmiral
Wilhelm Canaris, Vizeadmiral
Willy von Nordeck (ID "u", Admiral right of "t"), Vizeadmiral
Adalbert Schüssler, Charakter als Konteradmiral
Ernst Wolf (ID "j"), Charakter als Vizeadmiral
Friedrich Götting (ID "6"), Vizeadmiral
Georg Reimer, Charakter als Konteradmiral
Hans Stohwasser, Charakter als Konteradmiral
Hans-Herbert Stobwasser (ID "10", I am not sure about this one being Stobwasser, any ideas?), Vizeadmiral
Heinrich Ancker (ID "l", I am not sure about this one being Ancker, any ideas?), Konteradmiral
Karl Thäter, Konteradmiral Ing.
Kurt Aßmann (ID "k"), Charakter als Vizeadmiral
Robert Witthoeft-Emden, Vizeadmiral
Siegfried Maßmann, Charakter als Vizeadmiral
Thilo von Seebach, Konteradmiral
Walter Matthiae, Charakter als Konteradmiral
Werner Bettenhäuser, Konteradmiral Ing.
Werner Grassmann (ID "p"), Konteradmiral
Witold Rother (ID "m"), Konteradmiral
Erich Mahrholz, Charakter als Konteradmiral
Hans-Hermann Graf von Schweinitz und Krain Freiherr von Kauder, Charakter als Konteradmiral
Hasso von Bredow, Charakter als Konteradmiral
Kurt Ramien, Konteradmiral
Peter Christian Donner, Charakter als Konteradmiral

*PLEASE DO CHECK THE PHOTOS BELOW!

Many thanks!

Is this the ribbon of the Ritterkreuz des Königlicher Hausorden von Hohenzollern mit Schwertern?
If it is it would help narrow down the search for the identity of this unknown Vizeadmiral. And if you know who this Vizeadmiral is please do share your opinion!
Thanks!

 

Dear Webr55

I looked at it and I put a ruler against my screen to measure them, the EK1 and the KVK1 are roughly the same size

Kind regards, laurentius

Hello laurentius,

do you then think Bartenbach is wearing the Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz 1. Klasse?

 

Hi,

I am not 100 % sure, it is only my interpretation,

what we need is a Marinerangliste from the early 20s.

Maybe someone out here has such a Liste?!

Kind regards
Andreas

I agree with your interpretation. It is quite likely Lorey was awarded the Imtiyaz and Liakat medal because he serverd in Turkey during WW1. However do you think it's the Silver or Gold versions?

 

Hi,

my interpretation from the ribbon bar:

- 1914 EK 2. Klasse
- Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer 
- Königl. Preuss. Roter Adler-Orden 4. Klasse 
- Kolonialdenkmünze mit Spange „Venezuela 1902/03“ 
- ???
- Königl. Preuss. Dienstauszeichnungskreuz 
- Treue Dienst Ehrenzeichen 1. Stufe 40 Jahre
- Königl. Preuss. Kaiser Wilhelm-Erinnerungsmedaille 1797-1897 
- Mecidiye Orden with swords
- Liakat Medaille with swords
- Imtiaz Medaille with swords
- Kaiserl. Türkischer Eiserner Halbmond 
- Kaiserl. Türkischer Osmanje-Orden 4. Klasse 

Kind regards
Andreas

Andreas, can you please answer on my two questions above? I would greatly appreciate it.

Many thanks!

Can we try and ID Schlegel's awards from the last photo please?

 

Hard to tell. We need a better scan. 

Unfortunately this is the best scan we have...

 

No. As I said, the shape does not match. I still think I was right: This is one of the unofficial 1920s pinback crosses, see above. 

Yes, I saw your post, and I do agree with you. It could be one of the unofficial awards.

But you didn't say, is Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz 1. Klasse out of the question or also possible? The shape looks similar to me.

When I was trying to ID Bartenbach's medal bar, on another forum a memeber said one of the medals is the Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse. We can't confirm it with the Rangliste because Bartenbach retired in 1920 and wasn't active again until 1934.

So if he recieved the Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse it is also quite possible he recieved the 1.Klasse.

The 6th medal was identified as the Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse.

After Oldenburg Friedrich August-Kreuz 2. Klasse (partly covered by it) and before Lübeckisches Hanseatenkreuz.

So, do we all agree it is most likely that the award is the Steckkreuz für Treue Dienste 1st Class from Schaumburg-Lippe?

Or... ?

 

Dear fellow collectors

To me the award looked a bit like the Steckkreuz für Treue Dienste from Schaumburg-lippe, the cross 1st class. The arms seem less wide than those of the Iron cross, and we see a small emblem in the center of the cross, which could very well be the capital 'A' on the cross. I will attach some pictures.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Thank you for your answers guys. What about the Fürstl. Lippisches Kriegsehrenkreuz für Heldenmütige Tat?

The thing is, on the photo of Bartenbach I can't see the Laurel wreath (Lorbeerkranz) that is on the Lippe award?

 

Hi,

my interpretation from the ribbon bar:

- 1914 EK 2. Klasse
- Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer 
- Königl. Preuss. Roter Adler-Orden 4. Klasse 
- Kolonialdenkmünze mit Spange „Venezuela 1902/03“ 
- ???
- Königl. Preuss. Dienstauszeichnungskreuz 
- Treue Dienst Ehrenzeichen 1. Stufe 40 Jahre
- Königl. Preuss. Kaiser Wilhelm-Erinnerungsmedaille 1797-1897 
- Mecidiye Orden with swords
- Liakat Medaille with swords
- Imtiaz Medaille with swords
- Kaiserl. Türkischer Eiserner Halbmond 
- Kaiserl. Türkischer Osmanje-Orden 4. Klasse 

Kind regards
Andreas

Thank you very much! The unknown ribbon you left out is the Kriegsverdienstkreuz (1939) 2. Klasse ohne Schwertern I'm pretty sure. How sure are you about the 3 ribbons you identified (can I put these awards in my awards list for Lorey)? And also do you think the Liakat and Imtiaz medals are more likely to be the Silver versions instead of Gold (the Gold versions were pretty hard to get)?

 

Maybe you could provide a better scan from the ribbon bar?!

Kind regards

Andreas

Do you have any ideas? Do you at least agree with my identifications?

 

Maybe you could provide a better scan from the ribbon bar?!

Kind regards

Andreas

I'm sorry but this is the best I can do.

I think the ribbons are visible good enough.

Anyone?

What is this award?
Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz 1. Klasse or Mecklenburg-Schwerin Militärverdienstkreuz 1. Klasse? Or something else?

Thanks!

Can you help me identify the awards of Hermann Lorey from his ribbon bar?

This is his list of awards I managed to find:

Königl. Preuss. Kaiser Wilhelm-Erinnerungsmedaille 1797-1897
Kolonialdenkmünze mit Spange „Venezuela 1902/03“
Königl. Preuss. Roter Adler-Orden 4. Klasse
1914 EK 2. Klasse
1914 EK 1. Klasse
Kaiserl. Türkischer Osmanje-Orden 4. Klasse
Kaiserl. Türkischer Medschidiè-Orden 4. Klasse mit Säbeln
Kaiserl. Türkischer Eiserner Halbmond
Königl. Preuss. Dienstauszeichnungskreuz
Marineverwundetenabzeichen in Schwarz (1918)
Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer
Kriegsverdienstkreuz (1939) 2. Klasse ohne Schwertern 

Now his ribbon bar:

- 1914 EK 2. Klasse
- Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer ???
- Königl. Preuss. Roter Adler-Orden 4. Klasse ???
- Kolonialdenkmünze mit Spange „Venezuela 1902/03“ ???
- Kriegsverdienstkreuz (1939) 2. Klasse ohne Schwertern ???
- Königl. Preuss. Dienstauszeichnungskreuz ???
- Treue Dienst Ehrenzeichen 1. Stufe 40 Jahre ???
- Königl. Preuss. Kaiser Wilhelm-Erinnerungsmedaille 1797-1897 ???
- ???
- ???
- ???
- Kaiserl. Türkischer Eiserner Halbmond ???
- Kaiserl. Türkischer Osmanje-Orden 4. Klasse ???

I found our man

Vizeadmiral Walter Engelhardt

On the 2nd photo below you can see he wears the Kommandeurkreuz 2. Klasse des Dannebrogorden, and Engelhardt recieved this award (source Rangliste 1914)

5 hours ago, Bayern said:

For a while i tought in Guido von Usedom but he died in 1925. Usedom also was awarded the turkish war medal , the other German Admiral present in Turkey was Vizeadmiral Johannes Merten but he died in 1926 curiously he was recognized by the Ottoman Empire as General der Artillerie . sugerence : Go to : Kategorie Vizeadmiral ( Kaiserliche Marine ) Wikipedia with some luck you can find something

Thank you, I have the 3 volumes of Deutschlands Admirale with photos inside so I might find something there. The thing is, an Admiral could have been awarded the Gallipoli Star even if he didn't serve in Turkey. Otherwise it would be easy to find a Vizeadmiral that served in Turkey during WW1.

Does anyone know who this Vizeadmiral might be. Previously I thought he was Wilhelm Souchon but looking at his sleeve insignia, he is clearly a Vizeadmiral and Souchon was an Admiral (promoted in 1918 and this photo was taken in 1936). And also he looks much taller and fatter than Souchon (see 2nd and 3rd photo of Souchon below for comparison).

He also wears the Gallipoli Star, so it might help with the identification.

Thanks.

Can we try and ID his ribbon bar awards? And what does he wear around the neck?

On 20. 03. 2018. at 17:40, 922F said:

Last one may be a Norwegian St. Olav first type [1847-1906] Civil Divison, Knight First or Second Class.   Is that an Order of the Zähringer Lion preceding it?

Yes, the second to last medal seems to be the Order of the Zähringer Lion.

On 09. 03. 2018. at 01:37, Dave Danner said:

Schlegel was not a combat officer. He would likely have received a Military Merit Order on the ribbon of the Bravery Order, not the Bravery Order itself, such as the example below. There is no way to know what class, absent a better picture or a trip to the archives in Sofia. 

On 09. 03. 2018. at 04:07, 922F said:

Dave, 
By statute [c.f. Pavlov 2002, p. 130 & others] beginning in 1912, the MBO ribbon could accompany a MMO in place of the usual MMO yellow/white/black ribbon only when the MMO rewarded actual war [taken to mean battlefield or general staff level] merit and then only in the 4th, 5th, & 6th class.   Sixth class usually went to enlisted men, 5th class to senior NCOs & junior officers, and 4th class to mid-level officers.  MBO ribbons were not used with third & higher MMO classes.  Institution of the so-called 'war wreath' in 1916 did not affect this ribbon protocol. 

I suppose the odd foreign recipient could have ignored the statute & unofficially replaced a regulation MMO yellow/white/black ribbon with a MBO ribbon--like your image of a third class, post 20 above.   

If the ribbon under discussion in fact represents a MMO for war merit, it most likely would indicate a 4th, 5th, or 6th class award which might not be suitable for someone of Schlegel's rank/title.

As to MBO applicability, Bulgaria instituted a specific sub-class of 4th class, first [pin back] & second [breast badge] division, specifically for medical, religious, and musical personnel by 1915 statute amendment [c.f.Pavlov 2002, p  11].  These insignia do not have swords between the cross arms.  Some authors report this distinction appeared for second Balkan war issue MBOs though no authoritative documentation has yet appeared demonstrating this point to my understanding.

I posited MBO 4th, first division due to lack of pertinent rank list information plus Schlegel's position & personal rank/title.  That said, award anomalies do occur so -- lacking definite facts -- we may never know what award the ribbon indicates.   

By the way, Bulgarian Orthodox clergy received the majority of 'sword less' MBOs for religious personnel but a few Roman Catholics and Lutherans [& other Protestants?] as well as one or two Jewish & Muslim clerics supposedly earned this honor.   The true number of 'sword less' MBO awards remains unpublished but surely is relatively small. 

 

Here is a full photo of Schlegel's medal bar with all medals visible.

Can we ID this medal bar too?

Is the last medal Bulgarian or some other?