Kriegsmarine Admiral

Is this the ribbon of the Ritterkreuz des Königlicher Hausorden von Hohenzollern mit Schwertern?
If it is it would help narrow down the search for the identity of this unknown Vizeadmiral. And if you know who this Vizeadmiral is please do share your opinion!
Thanks!

 

Dear Webr55

I looked at it and I put a ruler against my screen to measure them, the EK1 and the KVK1 are roughly the same size

Kind regards, laurentius

Hello laurentius,

do you then think Bartenbach is wearing the Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz 1. Klasse?

 

Hi,

I am not 100 % sure, it is only my interpretation,

what we need is a Marinerangliste from the early 20s.

Maybe someone out here has such a Liste?!

Kind regards
Andreas

I agree with your interpretation. It is quite likely Lorey was awarded the Imtiyaz and Liakat medal because he serverd in Turkey during WW1. However do you think it's the Silver or Gold versions?

 

Hi,

my interpretation from the ribbon bar:

- 1914 EK 2. Klasse
- Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer 
- Königl. Preuss. Roter Adler-Orden 4. Klasse 
- Kolonialdenkmünze mit Spange „Venezuela 1902/03“ 
- ???
- Königl. Preuss. Dienstauszeichnungskreuz 
- Treue Dienst Ehrenzeichen 1. Stufe 40 Jahre
- Königl. Preuss. Kaiser Wilhelm-Erinnerungsmedaille 1797-1897 
- Mecidiye Orden with swords
- Liakat Medaille with swords
- Imtiaz Medaille with swords
- Kaiserl. Türkischer Eiserner Halbmond 
- Kaiserl. Türkischer Osmanje-Orden 4. Klasse 

Kind regards
Andreas

Andreas, can you please answer on my two questions above? I would greatly appreciate it.

Many thanks!

Can we try and ID Schlegel's awards from the last photo please?

 

Hard to tell. We need a better scan. 

Unfortunately this is the best scan we have...

 

No. As I said, the shape does not match. I still think I was right: This is one of the unofficial 1920s pinback crosses, see above. 

Yes, I saw your post, and I do agree with you. It could be one of the unofficial awards.

But you didn't say, is Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz 1. Klasse out of the question or also possible? The shape looks similar to me.

When I was trying to ID Bartenbach's medal bar, on another forum a memeber said one of the medals is the Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse. We can't confirm it with the Rangliste because Bartenbach retired in 1920 and wasn't active again until 1934.

So if he recieved the Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse it is also quite possible he recieved the 1.Klasse.

The 6th medal was identified as the Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse.

After Oldenburg Friedrich August-Kreuz 2. Klasse (partly covered by it) and before Lübeckisches Hanseatenkreuz.

So, do we all agree it is most likely that the award is the Steckkreuz für Treue Dienste 1st Class from Schaumburg-Lippe?

Or... ?

 

Dear fellow collectors

To me the award looked a bit like the Steckkreuz für Treue Dienste from Schaumburg-lippe, the cross 1st class. The arms seem less wide than those of the Iron cross, and we see a small emblem in the center of the cross, which could very well be the capital 'A' on the cross. I will attach some pictures.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Thank you for your answers guys. What about the Fürstl. Lippisches Kriegsehrenkreuz für Heldenmütige Tat?

The thing is, on the photo of Bartenbach I can't see the Laurel wreath (Lorbeerkranz) that is on the Lippe award?

 

Hi,

my interpretation from the ribbon bar:

- 1914 EK 2. Klasse
- Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer 
- Königl. Preuss. Roter Adler-Orden 4. Klasse 
- Kolonialdenkmünze mit Spange „Venezuela 1902/03“ 
- ???
- Königl. Preuss. Dienstauszeichnungskreuz 
- Treue Dienst Ehrenzeichen 1. Stufe 40 Jahre
- Königl. Preuss. Kaiser Wilhelm-Erinnerungsmedaille 1797-1897 
- Mecidiye Orden with swords
- Liakat Medaille with swords
- Imtiaz Medaille with swords
- Kaiserl. Türkischer Eiserner Halbmond 
- Kaiserl. Türkischer Osmanje-Orden 4. Klasse 

Kind regards
Andreas

Thank you very much! The unknown ribbon you left out is the Kriegsverdienstkreuz (1939) 2. Klasse ohne Schwertern I'm pretty sure. How sure are you about the 3 ribbons you identified (can I put these awards in my awards list for Lorey)? And also do you think the Liakat and Imtiaz medals are more likely to be the Silver versions instead of Gold (the Gold versions were pretty hard to get)?

 

Maybe you could provide a better scan from the ribbon bar?!

Kind regards

Andreas

Do you have any ideas? Do you at least agree with my identifications?

 

Maybe you could provide a better scan from the ribbon bar?!

Kind regards

Andreas

I'm sorry but this is the best I can do.

I think the ribbons are visible good enough.

Anyone?

What is this award?
Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz 1. Klasse or Mecklenburg-Schwerin Militärverdienstkreuz 1. Klasse? Or something else?

Thanks!

Can you help me identify the awards of Hermann Lorey from his ribbon bar?

This is his list of awards I managed to find:

Königl. Preuss. Kaiser Wilhelm-Erinnerungsmedaille 1797-1897
Kolonialdenkmünze mit Spange „Venezuela 1902/03“
Königl. Preuss. Roter Adler-Orden 4. Klasse
1914 EK 2. Klasse
1914 EK 1. Klasse
Kaiserl. Türkischer Osmanje-Orden 4. Klasse
Kaiserl. Türkischer Medschidiè-Orden 4. Klasse mit Säbeln
Kaiserl. Türkischer Eiserner Halbmond
Königl. Preuss. Dienstauszeichnungskreuz
Marineverwundetenabzeichen in Schwarz (1918)
Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer
Kriegsverdienstkreuz (1939) 2. Klasse ohne Schwertern 

Now his ribbon bar:

- 1914 EK 2. Klasse
- Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer ???
- Königl. Preuss. Roter Adler-Orden 4. Klasse ???
- Kolonialdenkmünze mit Spange „Venezuela 1902/03“ ???
- Kriegsverdienstkreuz (1939) 2. Klasse ohne Schwertern ???
- Königl. Preuss. Dienstauszeichnungskreuz ???
- Treue Dienst Ehrenzeichen 1. Stufe 40 Jahre ???
- Königl. Preuss. Kaiser Wilhelm-Erinnerungsmedaille 1797-1897 ???
- ???
- ???
- ???
- Kaiserl. Türkischer Eiserner Halbmond ???
- Kaiserl. Türkischer Osmanje-Orden 4. Klasse ???

I found our man

Vizeadmiral Walter Engelhardt

On the 2nd photo below you can see he wears the Kommandeurkreuz 2. Klasse des Dannebrogorden, and Engelhardt recieved this award (source Rangliste 1914)

5 hours ago, Bayern said:

For a while i tought in Guido von Usedom but he died in 1925. Usedom also was awarded the turkish war medal , the other German Admiral present in Turkey was Vizeadmiral Johannes Merten but he died in 1926 curiously he was recognized by the Ottoman Empire as General der Artillerie . sugerence : Go to : Kategorie Vizeadmiral ( Kaiserliche Marine ) Wikipedia with some luck you can find something

Thank you, I have the 3 volumes of Deutschlands Admirale with photos inside so I might find something there. The thing is, an Admiral could have been awarded the Gallipoli Star even if he didn't serve in Turkey. Otherwise it would be easy to find a Vizeadmiral that served in Turkey during WW1.

Does anyone know who this Vizeadmiral might be. Previously I thought he was Wilhelm Souchon but looking at his sleeve insignia, he is clearly a Vizeadmiral and Souchon was an Admiral (promoted in 1918 and this photo was taken in 1936). And also he looks much taller and fatter than Souchon (see 2nd and 3rd photo of Souchon below for comparison).

He also wears the Gallipoli Star, so it might help with the identification.

Thanks.

Can we try and ID his ribbon bar awards? And what does he wear around the neck?

On 20. 03. 2018. at 17:40, 922F said:

Last one may be a Norwegian St. Olav first type [1847-1906] Civil Divison, Knight First or Second Class.   Is that an Order of the Zähringer Lion preceding it?

Yes, the second to last medal seems to be the Order of the Zähringer Lion.

On 09. 03. 2018. at 01:37, Dave Danner said:

Schlegel was not a combat officer. He would likely have received a Military Merit Order on the ribbon of the Bravery Order, not the Bravery Order itself, such as the example below. There is no way to know what class, absent a better picture or a trip to the archives in Sofia. 

On 09. 03. 2018. at 04:07, 922F said:

Dave, 
By statute [c.f. Pavlov 2002, p. 130 & others] beginning in 1912, the MBO ribbon could accompany a MMO in place of the usual MMO yellow/white/black ribbon only when the MMO rewarded actual war [taken to mean battlefield or general staff level] merit and then only in the 4th, 5th, & 6th class.   Sixth class usually went to enlisted men, 5th class to senior NCOs & junior officers, and 4th class to mid-level officers.  MBO ribbons were not used with third & higher MMO classes.  Institution of the so-called 'war wreath' in 1916 did not affect this ribbon protocol. 

I suppose the odd foreign recipient could have ignored the statute & unofficially replaced a regulation MMO yellow/white/black ribbon with a MBO ribbon--like your image of a third class, post 20 above.   

If the ribbon under discussion in fact represents a MMO for war merit, it most likely would indicate a 4th, 5th, or 6th class award which might not be suitable for someone of Schlegel's rank/title.

As to MBO applicability, Bulgaria instituted a specific sub-class of 4th class, first [pin back] & second [breast badge] division, specifically for medical, religious, and musical personnel by 1915 statute amendment [c.f.Pavlov 2002, p  11].  These insignia do not have swords between the cross arms.  Some authors report this distinction appeared for second Balkan war issue MBOs though no authoritative documentation has yet appeared demonstrating this point to my understanding.

I posited MBO 4th, first division due to lack of pertinent rank list information plus Schlegel's position & personal rank/title.  That said, award anomalies do occur so -- lacking definite facts -- we may never know what award the ribbon indicates.   

By the way, Bulgarian Orthodox clergy received the majority of 'sword less' MBOs for religious personnel but a few Roman Catholics and Lutherans [& other Protestants?] as well as one or two Jewish & Muslim clerics supposedly earned this honor.   The true number of 'sword less' MBO awards remains unpublished but surely is relatively small. 

 

Here is a full photo of Schlegel's medal bar with all medals visible.

Can we ID this medal bar too?

Is the last medal Bulgarian or some other?

On 19. 06. 2013. at 21:52, Daniel Krause said:

@miko :-)

 

 

Who is this?

Thank you guys!

One question for Dave, how can you tell the difference between the 4th and 3rd Class of the Crown Order?

And the last few medals are very blurry on his medal bar. Did you perhaps already know all of his decorations or were you able to ID them now from his ribbon/medal bar? If so, props to you!

And if the last ribbon is the Bulgarian Military Bravery Order, what class does the crown represent?

And am I correct in saying that around the neck he is wearing the Merit Cross 1st Class for Services to the Red Cross with War Decoration (Austria-Hungary)?

4 minutes ago, 922F said:

Bavarian Military Merit Order 4th Class with Swords ???

- ???

- Something with Crown (perhaps foreign) ???                            SEHO??

- ???

- ??? (again some sort of device)                                                     Bulgarian crown on MBO ribbon or crossed swords?    

I'm sorry, what do you mean with "SEHO" and "MBO"?

Did anyone try to ID Schlegel's awards from his medal bar?

I found another photo with his ribbon bar...

Let's try and ID his awards:

Around the neck:

- Merit Cross 1st Class for Services to the Red Cross with War Decoration (Austria-Hungary) ???

Medal bar:

- Iron Cross (1914) 2nd Class

- Prussian Order of the Red Eagle 4th Class ???

- Prussian Order of the Crown 4th Class ???

- Prussian Red Cross Medal 2nd Class ???

- Prussian Long Service Cross ???

- ???

- South West Africa Medal in Steel ???

- Prussian Centenary Medal 1897 ???

- Bavarian Military Merit Order 4th Class with Swords ???

The rest can't be seen on the medal bar... It's too blurry.

Ribbon bar:

- Iron Cross (1914) 2nd Class

- Prussian Order of the Red Eagle 4th Class ???

- Prussian Order of the Crown 4th Class ???

- Prussian Red Cross Medal 2nd Class ???

- South West Africa Medal in Steel ???

- Prussian Long Service Cross ???

- Bavarian Military Merit Order 4th Class with Swords ???

- ???

- Something with Crown (perhaps foreign) ???

- ???

- ??? (again some sort of device)

I guess he isn't listed in the Rank Lists?