laurentius

5 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

no sword devices

To use devices was often a choice made by the owner, not something which was regulated.

5 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

So a wartime bavarian Bar may be different

There were lots of differences between the post-1933 regulations (which were basically an amendment of the Prussian regulations) and the Bavarian wartime regulations. Rick L used to have a list of Bavarian precedence on WAF, which I sadly cannot find at the moment, however, Wartime awards, even from different states, had precedence over peacetime awards from their own state. The problem with ribbonbars and medalbars in general is that one can usually find an example of every possible combination one can think of.

Kind regards, Laurentius

2 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

may be wrong, but i cannot remember seeing a bar with MVOs seperated? They always seem to be next to each other on a bar?

Bavarians can be rather capricious when it comes to medalbars. Although it goes against precedence most of the Bavarian officers went their own way. I managed to find a picture on the forum of a medalbar where the MVO4x and the MVO4 are seperated. I know there are atleast several other ones on this forum, but this is the first one I found.

54 minutes ago, GdC26 said:

Studying hte pic again I seemed to notice the medal at hand is oval. Since given its prominent place on hte bar, this is likely a Mecklenburg Schwerin award, I was wondering if  nr. 2 could be the Goldene Militär Verdienstmedaille 1813/14? I could not find a pic of a gold one, but here is a link to the silver version: https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/silberne-militar-verdienstmedaille-fur-1813-1815.html 

I don't think it was this one either, since Friedrich Franz wasn't alive during the Napoleonic wars. I'm still fairly confident in my choice, the Prussian Red Cross decoration.

5 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

On most bars it seems to be the VO with swords, then directly after the MVO without?

We often see this yes, although it goes against the precedence regulations set by the Bavarian state. My safest bet would be behind the EK or behind the Anhalt Friedrichkreuz.

2 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Would the MVO have been on the order of them bein awarded, or would the one with swords take preference for 1st place?

Swords take precedence. The peace-time MVO would either go behind the EK or behind the Anhalt Friedrichkreuz, both would be acceptable for a Bavarian. Hope this helps

24 minutes ago, ccj said:

Another favor

Which piece in the collection do you refer to? ??

In all honesty though, every single piece in the picture would make a fine addition to this thread. 

5 hours ago, 91-old-inf-reg said:

Hello, the first medal that you’re trying to ID is the Preußen Hannoversche Jubiläumsdenkmünze.

I disagree, unless he is wearing a smaller version of the Jubiläumsdenkmünze it doesn't fit. I would also be inclined to wonder why a prince from Mecklenburg got a medal meant for former Hannoverian troops, when Mecklenburg served on the opposite side during the war.

In my opinion this is the German red cross medal.

Kind regards, Laurentius

2 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

then I guess i need a bar with MVO4, MVO swords, EK2, Jubi Medal, Anhalf Frierich Kreuz, d.K.2 (Dienst Kreuz II Klasse?) + Austrian ?

Yes, in this order (MVO4x, EK2, Anhalt Friedrichkreuz, ÖMVK, JM, BDA)

54 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

if the pre 1914 MVO was for China, or DSWA it would stay, but a full peacetime one was replaced?

In all three cases the MVO would not be pushed off, this would only happen if the officer got two MVO's in the same conflict

I think we need a bit more info to be able to give proper advice, however, I can already answer some of your questions

4 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Would he have worn the Romanian one or removed it from the bar? Romania may have joined the war late, but they were on the allied side long before...

Awards were worn up untill the moment Romania joined the war, this does however not mean he would have worn his Romanian awards, since most officers tried to keep their ribbonbar down to the bare essentials.

5 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

the MVO4th class would push the prewar one without swords off the bar

A MVO4x would not push a MVO4 of a bar, since they were earned at different times they were allowed to be worn together.

6 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

And the Austrian one was often worn separately?

Austrian awards would be worn on the ribbonbar/medalbar. There are pictures of German officers wearing a ribbonbar plus an Austrian trifold, but this was usually on the date of bestowel, which for many German soldiers was one of the few moments they were actually photographed.

8 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

I assume the 1st one would be the Jubiläums Medal and MVO without swords?

This would be correct if there were no other decorations up untill that point. The EK2 was often worn through the buttonhole, therefore they didn't need to update their ribbonbar.

Hope this helps, 

Kind regards, Laurentius

On 19/05/2020 at 06:00, OvBacon said:

the contrast couldn't be greater.

The contrast couldn't be greater indeed, however, this is not the fault of Joseph Luns. Prince Claus was known for hating grandeur and 'unnecessary' clothing. He was the most unlikely royal one might say. He died as he lived, not in a palace, but in a cottage, near the forest, on a palace estate.

He has been identified in a different thread here on GMIC, I can't seem to find it although I remember he worked in railways/forestry. 

Kind regards, Laurentius

47 minutes ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

Can aynone confirm the two circled awards are the Königlich Preußischer Kronen-Orden 2. Klasse mit dem Stern?

It is indeed the 2nd class of the Kronenorden.

47 minutes ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

Großkreuz des k.u.k. Österreichischen Franz-Joseph-Ordens (not visible on the photo, possibly positioned below the Stern der Kronen Orden 2. Klasse)

Just inside the red circle of the Stern, at the bottom, we see a few pixels which I believe to be a ray of the Star of the FJO.

I don't think an ID is possible, only the RAO, KDM and LOE would show up in the ranklists. The Order of the Oakcrown is a pre-1890 award (Dutch rather than Luxemburgian) and the RAO is pre-1885. This gives it a bit of a window which might help, you never know

Here is a picture of Queen Juliana of the Netherlands wearing the Prinzessinenkreuz of the Order. Given the fact that she wears the Order of the Dutch Lion and not the Military Order of William I'd put this picture in the latter part of the 30's.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Probably just a small mistake. He most likely quickly popped it on for a picture and forgot it's also on his ribbonbar. Perhaps a picture for the 'Mistakes in Wear'-thread.

Kind regards, Laurentius

13 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

Trotha has also been the victim of what you called the "Age Of Wiedergutmachung".

He's hardly a victim, he is someone who is unworthy of a streetname. New times bring new insights, which is exactly why they are changing it.

13 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

I have to seriously wonder how many museums in Germany would be willing to put Trotha's medal bar on display in this kind of political climate.

Every museum would be willing to, for the same reason every historical museum is willing to put up SS stuff, controversy sells.

On 03/05/2020 at 18:18, VtwinVince said:

How is it that they had the most loyal and effective Colonial army on the continent

They had the best army in Africa because they paid the best. The BRD payed out pensions well into the '60s

Fourth medal from the left looks like the Verdienstmedaille zum Württembergische Kronenorden

1 hour ago, Claudio said:

Thank you Laurentius! Is the RK of the Luxembourg (Nassau?) Lion Order so big? It looks almost a Komtur cross being worn on the medal bar... 

It is a rather big award. Württemberg had a connection to the Netherlands, which untill 1890 was ruled in a personal union together with Luxembourg.

1 hour ago, Claudio said:

Gentlemen, which order do you think it is on the forth last position from the right, the Maltese shapened cross with white enamel? For sure not the Wurttemburgian order of military merit, I thought maybe from the ribbon a Waldeck HO...

I think you are correct here. Ribbon, shape and size all seem to check out for the Waldeck-Pyrmont Verdienstkreuz 3. Klasse.

But no Medal of Freedom, peculair, you'd say he would put that on his miniature bar

Dear fellow collectors,

whilst exploring the internet of things I came across this picture of Queen Juliana. Initially I was interested in the jewelery that the Queen was wearing, untill I noticed the nice moustachio'd man on the right. I believe this to be Willem drees, given his moustache, length and general appearance. His wikipediapage gives us only the American Medal of Freedom and the Dutch Order of Orange-Nassau, however, in this picture he seems to have atleast a dozen decorations. Would any of the Dutch collectors be able to help me out with the medals?

Kind regards and thanks in advance, Laurentius

My oh my, I have rarely seen a picture with the Luxemburgian Order of the Gold lion of Nassau (second to last on the Schnalle). I might be wrong here, but I think this might be the rarest order on the medalbar.

Here is a picture of Johan van Panhuys who wears the commander grade of the order.

3 hours ago, David M said:

Oh it was my understamding that when you get a higher grade, you hand in the lower one to the kanzlei of whatever order you got. It was mostly in the rules.

It largely depends on the order, but I'd say that this rule would apply for almost all peacetime orders, given some exceptions.

1 hour ago, David M said:

Why is he wearing two of the same waldeck-pyrmont medals?

Because he earned them. Within imperial collection there are basically three schools of thought.

1. All decorations belonging to the same order may be worn together (which goes for most orders/decorations)

2. All decorations belonging to the same order are allowed to be worn, if they were earned in different conflicts

3. Only one class is allowed to be worn

Now, rules were broken, after 1918 there were no people anymore to tell you you were in the wrong with the way you wore your decorations, which lead to some freaky medalbars between 1918 and 1933. In 1934 the nazi's cleaned house, banning certain orders for the newly established FEK

A great example of rule number 2 is Franz Ritter von Epp who earned three different grades of the BMVO. This was the reason he was allowed to wear all three, which he often did. Although the BMVO isn't the rarest of orders (around 41.000 awarded I believe, ofcourse a number where handed out two or three times, so the actual number is much lower) I think Epp is one of only a dozen officers with three grades.

Now, back to Waldeck-Pyrmont. As far as I know (more knowledgeable collectors please correct if wrong) there were no rules stating that only one grade was allowed to be worn. I also believe we have more pictures of recipients who wore both the 4th and 3rd class at the same time. Hope this helps.

Kind regards, Laurentius

I agree with your conclusion, now we have to find out the remaining seven. Would anyone be able to help us with information from the ranklists, that might give us the final clue which will help us solve this puzzle?

Kind regards, Laurentius

1 hour ago, David M said:

Thats certainly true. I am a little over-romanticising from time to time ?

It is my experience that the past often allows us, all of us, to romanticize a bit. Not to worry, we all do it, especially when around our collection