laurentius

Dear FAR32,

first of all I'd like to say that the picture of the Order of the Iron Crown with wreath is not mine. It comes from a database on this website, set up by the late Rick Lundstrom, for future research into ribbonbars. It would be an understatement to say that Rick would be excited to see this thread.

I believe we have struck a most interesting topic here (Nicholas must hate us for hijacking his thread). It doesn't surprise me that the device on the ribbonbar posted by me comes from a different medal. This was often done by tailors (as mentioned by you, with the wreath of the Wurttembergian MVO).

On 08/10/2019 at 18:43, FAR 32 said:

A real ribbon bar from 1940 (or later) is shown below. 

This is a lovely ribbonbar, one of the few originals, however, I do not think this piece is representative for Orders of the Iron Crown given to Germans, since the recipient here was Austrian (although German at the time the ribbonbar was made). I have a few more examples I'd like you to take a look at. They are pictured below (the pictures themselves do not belong to me, I do not actively collect ribbonbars).

If what you say is true ( only improvised wreaths) than what would you say of the first of the two Order of the Iron Crowns here? It matches your description perfectly. It is only laurel, and it is half open (not opened like my previous example).

Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear FAR32,

here is a picture of the correct 'Auflage' for the Order of the Iron Crown 3rd class

I believe this picture is from Rick Lundstrom. Sadly, most of these pictures can't be viewed anymore. I will also add this picture of a ribbonbar with swords. This is incorrect, since only the Austrians received swords. However, it is not uncommon to find Austro-Hungarian awards on German medal- and ribbonbars with added swords, crowns or a mixture of the two.

To revisit the topic of Nicholas' ribbonbar. I believe the mystery-award with swords to be the Swedish Order of the Sword. This was an uncommon, but not rare award with German pre-war officers. 

5 hours ago, Daniel Krause said:

"Hardly any" 2nd classes to Germans is relative. I have 59 2nd classes with war dec. to Prussians in my files, 6 to Württembergians, 5 to Bavarians, 4 to Saxons, 74 in all.

3rd Classes - 284 to Prussians, 37 to Bavarians, 12 to Saxons, 9 to Württembergians.

 

Daniel, would you also have the numbers (ballpark) of the number of awarded MVK's to German officers?

Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear FAR32,

I fear you have a few things mixed up. The Order of the Iron Crown 2nd class was worn on the neck, therefore it was not present on the ribbonbar. Secondly, there are hundreds of pictures, documents and ribbonbars that show the Order of the Iron Crown third class being worn with a laurel wreath on the ribbon bar. This afternoon I will post some pictures of German officers with the Order of the Iron Crown third class with a laurel wreath on their ribbonbar.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear Spolei,

thanks for your reply. I fear I won' t be able to show you the back of the agraffe, since the order is sown down tightly. You say that the swords are early Hemmerle. Would I be correct in saying the entire cross is early (pre-1916)?

Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius

Dear Waldo,

are you certain? I am not an expert when it comes to Military Merit Order, but I'm fairly certain the centers are not gold, and you can't see the back of the swords in the my pictures, of account of it being sown down on the ribbon. are you perhaps mistaking my cross with the piece from Graham?

Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear 1812 Overture,

I only collect German medalbars connected to WW1. I usually stay away from medalbars with WW2 awards or other decorations like Freikorps for example.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear fellow collectors,

I recieved this evening a lovely medalbar, consisting of an EK2, LS, HH, and an Austrian golden meritcross. It's in a great condition, and it has a lovely orangish/brownish backing. Am I mistaken when I say that this combination was likely for Naval personnel serving in the Mediterranean front?

Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear fellow collectors,

I was finally able to add a nice BMVO4x to my collection. It has sadly been removed from the original medalbar, a naughty Bavarian bar I think, given the folding and the damage to the back of the left arm. I know it was made after 1916, but would any of the more knowledgable collectors be able to help me to determine the maker?

Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius

Thanks Glenn, you're a lifesaver

Dear Andreas,

thank you very much for your help.

So we know now that he held the rank of Oberst (colonel) and that he had a Order of the Iron Crown 2nd class. Surely, there must be more information?

Kind regards and thanks in advance, Laurentius

Dear fellow collectors,

I am looking for information on Freiherr von Milkau, who served as Oberstleutnant (as least for some time) in the Saxon army and who was awarded an Order of the Iron Crown 2nd class. Would it be possible to find out something about his career and decorations?

Kind regards and thanks in advance, Laurentius

I have been thinking of this bar the entire day, it has captured my attention it seems. I have thought of two possibilities, both these medalbars were made by the same person/jeweler, untill here the two possibilities are identical. However, perhaps they belonged to two persons at court with roughly the same rank, who had the bar made by the same jeweler in town, or these medalbars belonged to the same person.

There are far too many similarities to consider these two pieces 'just happen to look the same'. It is my opinion these bars were made by the same jeweler, or the same person.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear Ulsterman,

I recently bought a painting of a Napoleonic veteran which was accompanied by the list of EK2 1813 awardees. A number of them would receive an EK2 once a veteran who held one would die, this was to releave the Ordenskanzlei of costs. Once I'm back at home I'll have a look for you.

Kind regards, Laurentius

It seems we are dealing with two identical medalbars, how interesting. Perhaps two from the same man, or two from people of the same rank at the court of Schaumburg-Lippe?

Dear fellow collectors,

I have a couple of questions regarding the Italian Order of the Crown. Was this award given to Germans fighting in Spain prior to WW2 (like the medal of valour on blue ribbon) and if so, did the rank of the recipient have any influence on the class of the Order that was given? I know there were several Germans who received an Order of the Crown between 1933 and 1939 but I wonder if this was for general merit or for actions in Spain.

Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius

Dear Alex,

that picture is not from the Royal Trust, it is a German auctionhouse which has sold many 'post-1918 decorative pieces' some of which with garter. Looking at the quality and design of this badge I would not consider it to be an original.

Kind regards, Laurentius

1 hour ago, Alex K said:

saxe-ernerstine house order grand cross, (Saxony)

Several of the Thuringian states rather than the Kingdom of Saxony. I don't know the exact reason why three different dukedomes in the middle of Germany would choose to award the same decorations, but I think it has something to do with economic power.

Ernistiner Hausorden

Thanks everyone for your help, this has been a very helpful thread.

If I understand Andreas correctly, the flames are attached separately in the same manner swords are? Are they screwed in, or attached in a different manner?

Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius

Dear Graham

I have read the thread several times when I was at doubt with Bavarian decorations. It is a splendid thread, discussing the orders and crosses, but also mountingstyles and preventing damage. Although several BMVO3x are shown there, I am not able to distinguish the separately applied flames. That's why I asked if there is someone with detailed pictures to help me.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear fellow collectors,

I recently read in an old thread somewhere that most pieces on the market today that are sold as BMVO3x are actually BMVO4x's that have been gilded at a later stage. However, original BMVO3x pieces can be recognized because the flames are attached separately, whereas they are cast with the BMVO4x. Would there be any collectors out there with detailed pictures that would clearly show the difference? I would also be interested in any other pictures, regarding the production of these orders. After researching online I did come across several pictures of Prussian decorations being made (e.g. Iron Crosses), sadly I wasn't able to find anything on the manufacture of Bavarian awards, like the BMVO.

Kind regards and thanks in advance, Laurentius

Dear VtwinVince,

here are the pictures you asked for.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear fellow collectors,

I was recently browsing the auctionsite Ratisbon's when I came across this rather peculiar medalbar. I will refrain from commenting on the originality of the medalbar itself for the moment, however, the quality of the BMVO4x and the BMVK1x seemed off to say the least (full beltbuckle). Yet, if I recall correctly there was one maker who shortly produced one of these full beltbuckles. Would any of the Bavarian collectors be willing to chip in?

Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius

I agree with Sascha here. Although both these orders have a star as a medaillon (which can be rather difficult with unclear photographs), there is still the ribbon. I do not believe the ribbon on the second medal to be red. In my opinion, it is white, which would point to a decoration from Waldeck.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Dave, Sascha and Daniel, I'd like to thank you for your input.

 I have however a question. Dave said the guess was that there were around 1720 awards in 1918. isn't that a bit low? That would mean it is the lowest year except for 1914 (which was only 4 months). Isn't 1918 usually the year in which awards were most often given out?

Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius