Franken75

Is the ring a split ring?

and could it be a replacement for an original ribbon ring?

Kevin in Deva.

Hallo Kevin,

of course it could be replaced in old times(maybe a mark from the Jeweler)

Kev, the ring looks to be original, not a later replacement. I believe that it's either an inspection mark or initials of the recipient.

Franken, thanks for the identification. Since this was, as you stated, a later variant could this be the early type made by Hemmerle:

Swords are completely different and they are attached little bit higher than on the later type.

Thanks in advance.

That one you have posted now is a Weiss&Co

I saw this cross on Ebay too, but the mark in the ring does not make any sense, the cross is a late Hemmerle.

Best regards

As usual has the Raritaetensammlerclub something extraordinary and never seen before for sale. This time it's the Knight Cross to the Bavarian MVO??? Never heard that such a class of this order existed...

http://cgi.ebay.de/415-Ritterkreuz-d-bayerischen-Militaer-Verdienstorden_W0QQitemZ140350250434QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitaria?hash=item20ad86ddc2&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

...1010 EUR so far.

Hello,

the MVO Ritter 1, changed in 1905 to the MVO 3. Class(the design doesen`t change), and the Ritter 2(made out of Gold no flames between the arms) changed into the MVO 4. class

But this piece from the club is not worth to buy, like all his other stuff.An original Ritter 2 looks completely different.

Hello Avadski,

nice cross it is the same maker like your first post, also Deschler

Regards

Hallo avadski,

the maker is Deschler.

Regards

Then, these Weiss MVO 3. class are a fake?

http://www.hermann-h..._GB&db=M-50.txt

http://www.hermann-h..._GB&db=M-50.txt

No totally fakes, but 4.Classes which were later gilded to realize more money.

Okay, query from One Who Does Not Know:

Why on Earth does his second BMVO IV wind up six places to the right of the Hindenburg cross??? Laziness of hte assembler ("Schei?e! I'm not gonna disassemble the whole thing for one lousy MVO! I'll just add it to the end...!")

As a former resident of Bavaria who's still partial to the former Kingdom, I don't get it! Somebody please enlighten me!

---Cartoonman

Because the second MVO and the Luitpolt Medal are pure Peace-time awards. At first he wears his War-time Awards, then the long service Awards, then the third Reich Awards and last and unfortunately at least his Peace-time Awards.

I also do not like to see those nice and rare MVO?s in this position. Some Wehrmacht Officers don`t wore their Jubilee Medal on their Medal Bar(Maybe no Bavarian Patriots)

Some good guys want to let him pay very high charges to ebay,I think this is a very good idea to stop this criminal.

Varies by Maker. I think Lesser did this thicker lower edge varient. Maker marks/content marks for silver are usually found on the back of the swords. The bar on eBay from California was just auctioned off in Germany. Now it's for sale with a reserve in California. 10-Place bar?

The Maker is Hemmerle

Regards

That one from Ulsterman is by mine humble Opinion a doubtless Original

Made by Hemmerle

so wait before pushing orders into saltwater or doing any other bad things to them.

I'm not sure of this maker?

Can you also send a picture from the back ? Looks like Hemmerle.

Aieeee-

Purchased from Spinks in 1998 no less.

Anyone have an idea as to how I can repair this fraudulently upgraded medal?

Also, i would be grateful if our German friends would privately PM me with any details of the man in Germany who is doing this. i would be happy to file a lawsuit here for civil fraud. It will cost me only $25 and it'll be well worth it to publicize the case. People are afraid to name names in case of a threatened libel suit, but it's quite allowable to discuss the merits of un unsealed legal case. No one can sue you for libel if you are 'merely discussing the merits of a fraud case'.

Can you send a picture from the backside, I have to say again that gilded MVK1X exist and that one does not look bad.

Another interesting discussion regarding these crosses.

I was going to ask, how does one know if the centre is real gold or not but after studying the cross that started this thread with the later examples posted, which are confirmed as real gold, one can see that the quaility of the external rim of the medallion is different in appearance. You can see the real gold examples are smooth, polished and a slightly different shade from the gilded cross, whereas the first one the rim is the same colour as the rest of the cross and is rough in appearance.

Is my observation correct in determining real gold from the 'upgraded' pieces?

Rich

Yes, that are a few important points for a center made out of gold, the one piece centers are a few more thin, like the silver ones. The best is if you have a Original in your hand that will say more than pictures.

But don`t forget that gilded MVK1X also exist(again other criteria), but gilded ones with crown do not exist.

Regards

Thanks Franken for your info. I didn't know that the Leser's MVK1.Kl. with Golden center medallion was constructed in one piece... I looked it up what Sammlerchris posted, but I couldn't find it.

Could you find it for me and post it here?

Ciao,

Claudio

Chris sent the link in that Threat where you have posted your nice Luftwaffenspange with the nice Hemmerle MVK2KrX. And you can also find it in the Datenbank from the mff.This thread was started in 28. Dec.07

Regards

I forgot to say that, for the early types up to 1916, it's quite evident the multi-pieces construction of the center medallion...

I would love to adquire a medal bar with a REAL MVK 1. Kl. If anybody knows somebody selling it, please let me know!!!

I also know a very big Bavarian collector and part-time dealer and also museum curator that sold me several of these pieces that he upgraded himself in his atelier... I saw the atelier... He never told me that the pieces he sold me were upgraded, though! That's why his prices were so good... no wonder all his pieces looked like brand new. He's quite an artist also with enamel repairs... :-((((((

Of course in his own collection he kept only the good ones and he's not going to sell them...

My brother told me that in order to be a good collector you must be also very egoist... that's why my brother doesn't have a good collection... maybe I am more selfish than he's or maybe I only spend more...

Ciao,

Claudio

Ciao Claudio,

the man who sells this upgraded ones(I know him too) in my eyes he is an criminal, destroying nice Originals(given to brave men ,even if its a MVK 3.ClassX) and sell them for rare pieces. Some times ago there was an nice early(colonial) MVO 4b downgraded as an MVK first type also destroyed by this b....rd.

When I write anything in a forum I only want to stop these manipulated pieces going around.

I must correct you because the early types from Leser(1913-1916) have not a multi piece center construction, but a one piece center made out of pure gold when you look again the pictures in the mff look at the the last MVK1X made by Leser with the Beamtenband, these pictures demonstrate very good how a early real gold(one piece) center from Leser must look like(very fine and a little bit like 3D). There is also a picture of an Original MVK first class with crown and swords made by Leser with exactly the same center. Sammlerchris posted this one a few threds ago.

Here is a close up of the lion. ~Ed

By early I mean the early types from WW1, the MVK with crown was founded in 1913.

This MVK is about 1917 and unfortunately now I`m absolutely sure that it was later gilded.

Why do you think the center is made out of pure gold ?

Regards

Can you make better pics from the lion at the backside.

Maybe after I can tell you more.

Regards

A thin black outline around each letter, scroll,and belt hole.

This MVK with crown and swords is made by Leser, but unfortunately in its Original it was an MVK 2.Class with crown and swords which was later gilded. Leser did those first classes with crown and swords too, but there exist only early types with the front side center made out of pure gold.

...with the paranoia going on regarding MVKs, I would like to let you inspect my bar... I hope that it's a good MVK2KrX!

Any comments are greatly appreciated!

Ciao,

Claudio

Very, very nice bar, with an nice MVK made by Hemmerle. I`m sure you know that the MVK is OK

A generally Paranoia in MVKs is absolutely causeless, you only have to be a little bit carefull about the first classes, MVO 4.class without swords and colonial types.

Regards

I hope I did not make a big mistake.I normally stay on my ek2s.Often these pop up,But always go for more then I want or can spend at the time.

I got this on ebay tonight and I think it went to cheap.113 euros,with a band.Now dont get me wrong,I think this is a period piece,not a 1920s piece.

I try to do my homework and I hope I am right.So it is too late to say dont buy it.

MFG

Scott

PS:did I make a mistake?

it`s a nice doubtless Original piece made by Jacob Leser Straubing awarded about 1917-19

Hi I've seen the attached on a dealers website that I'm interested in for 190GBP, could, in view of the many comments made in this thread, ayone comment on the authenticity?

regards

Alex K

Originally it was a MVK third class with crown and swords made by Weiss & Co. Another destroyed medal.

Regards

PS:

I'm still looking for a good(!) MMO 4th class without swords. If someone has one he doesn't need anymore, this nice MMC might leave me ...

I hope it might leave only in direction francony, sometime I hope to have something real nice from Baden than I will submit you an Offer that you will not cut off .

Both 3rd classes are Silver gilt!

With" front med. made out of gold" I meant of course the 4. Class with crown from the Preussen Spange.

I`m sure you mean one third class with crown and swords in silver gilt (beauty)

and one 4th class with crown with front med. made out of gold (also beauty)

A very nice Spange

Not to forget the foto under the Spange with the two MVOs, this is also a nice example of a 3.Class with crown and swords(silver gilt) also made by Hemmerle the same type like on the Spange with the two MVOs.