Utgardloki

To get back to the initial topic:

King Ludwig III of Bavaria wearing the grandcross(?) insignia of the Bavarian Military Merit Order around the neck on this well known photograph. I kinda feel a little bit embarrassed I never actually recognized how common it was to wear grand cross badges around the neck. (But I am a young collector, so I might be forgiven)

You're right, it is of highest quality (I would love to be able to see it without its signs of age). The other things lying around in this showcase are also pretty nice. Unfortunately I do not remember who was the bearer of these...

Wilhelm von Württemberg wearing the grand cross in the fashion before 1914. Obviously, as he died 1896...

A very interesting old thread, I just came across.

This painting is showing Philipp zu Eulenburg wearing a Jerusalem-Kreuz

Is it already known what the circumstances were that led to that this cross had to be worn even with the kleiner Dienstanzug? Was this Wilhelm II personal idea?

The store of G.A. Scharffenberg was at See-Straße 16:

The question is whether they also produced them there or at another place?

Pictures from http://altesdresden.de

What I think is also interesting is that G.A. Scharffenberg did lend pieces of his collection for the colored prints of the book "Der Königlich Sächsische Militär-St.-Heinrichs-Orden" from 1937:

I'd like to share with You some things I found during research:

1) The two previously shown "grand master crosses" side by side for easier comparison:

2) Another picture of Friedrich August III wearing a grand masters cross

3) Another picture of King Albert wearing the 1893 collar

4) Another picture of what might be the "real" collar, not a model to it:

5) Text about Albert getting the collar:

I have still a few questions i couldn't find an answer:

1) Why are there at least two different grand master crosses? Where is the black-and-white-photograph-one today? (or was it lost/destroyed?)

2)Where is the chain/collar that King Albert received 1893 today? (or was it lost/destroyed?)

3) Did Kaiser Wilhelm II really receive a special grand cross? If yes, are there pictures of it and where is it today? (or was it lost/destroyed?)

I couldn't find a photograph where Wilhelm II is wearing his grand cross, if You know one feel free to share.

15 hours ago, Great Dane said:

If the collar was a special gift from the officers, does that mean that this is the only collar ever made for this order?

It looks very unique, including the FM batons as a suspension.

Yes, I think so...

I read there was also a special grand cross for Wilhelm II, is that true?

I read:

"Zur Erinnerung an gemeinsames Wirken im Felde
von ihren(m?) dankbaren Kommandanten"

18. 2. 1917 ??? (18. 12. 1917 very unlikely)

2 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

I hope they're not storing this stuff at the Gruenes Gewoelbe.

?

That's an interesting text about the 50-years military jubilee of King Albert:

(From: Monarchiejubiläen im 19. Jahrhundert, by Simone Mergen)

Another interesting St.-Henry piece is the chain or collar to the grand cross that was made for Albert in honor of his 50-years army jubilee

Here's a picture of a model:

King Albert wearing the chain:

Does anyone know where the chain is now - or if it was lost?

19 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:

The stolen items are being estimated at 1.5 billion.

I've heard that too, but I think it's exaggerated. It's pretty hard to put a price on it

What I really hope is that they don't break the pieces, regrind the jewels and melt down the metal, that would be horrific.

As You might already have heard, there were pieces stolen from the Green Vault in Dresden today. I haven't found a full list of the missing items yet, but one of the stolen items seems to be this fantastic insignia of the Polish Order of the White Eagle:

That's the showcase they broke into - there is still not much information how much they took out of it:

I am not sure if the German imperial forum this is the right  place to post this - but as the theft happened in Dresden it might be

Nevertheless I hope the pieces come back...

21 hours ago, TJLA said:

Hi Laurentius,

So how would one know, back in the day, when coming up on an officer what he was awarded? For instance, imagine a bunch of officers standing around having a chat in dress uniform, one would not walk up and eyeball how the flames are screwed in to see if this gent was awarded a 3rd or 4th class.

Is there any other way to identify this? Seems incredibly complicated to understand even if one was in the Bavarian Army lol.

 

thanks!

I am no expert in Bavarian orders, but isn't it that back in the day the 4th class was silver and the 3rd class gold?

Later in the war the gold-awards were made out of gilded silver.

So it was easy to distinguish the classes - gold: 3rd class, silver: 4th class,

For us collectors it is not that easy, the gilding wears out over the time, so former silver gilded ones appear silver, and it is easy to increase the value by gilding silver 4th classes to let them look like 3rd classes, so the screwed in flames is something to look at for collectors to distinguish.

Amazing collection indeed, thanks for sharing!

How strict where the criteria for getting the Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer - did homefront guys who weren't under direct fire receive it too? How far away from the front did you have to be to only get the Kriegsteilnehmer one without swords?

Nevertheless, could it be that maybe there was a cross without swords on the bar and a pre-owner restored it with a sword one?

And again, not every soldier did get the EKII (only a third to half - approximately?)

First here the regiments of the 29. Inf.-Brigade during WW1:

That's there entry in the Gothaisches genealogisches Taschenbuch der gräflichen Häuser from 1893  

So there are some other guys, and sure he could have been born later

At 5. 2) is Your guy

I hope that could help a bit...

Kind regards

On 18/09/2016 at 21:05, Deruelle said:

Hi,

An old topic but recently I was lucky enough to buy a big ribbon bar which belonged to Oberstleutnant Gerog Hoffmann.

Christophe

It's interesting to note that only 8 Saxon officers received the WK3XmL. A very rare crosses indeed

I am the new owner of this bar, so if anyone has new information or pictures of him I would be glad to hear them

Ah sure... it's the first class not grand cross... I haven't thought about that, interesting that he (or his staff) didn't update

Another one: (tagged with 1889)

And another one I found from a different perspective:

(Empfangskommitee für Kaiser Franz Joseph I. von Österreich, König von Ungarn: Kaiser Wilhelm II., König von Preußen mit Gefolge vor geschmücktem Eingang in Berlin, 12.08.1889, Bild 1 [Quelle: Hauptstaatsarchiv Stuttgart])

And another one:

(Nach Parade auf Tempelhofer Feld: Kaiser Wilhelm II., Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria (im Damensattel) mit Kaiser Franz Joseph I. von Österreich, letzterer in Ulanenuniform, begleitet von Dame und Offizieren durch Berlin reitend, am Strassenrand Zivilbevölkerg.)

Is Kaiser Franz Josef in this photograph wearing a red eagle grandcross badge around his neck?

Saxe-Ernestine House Order:

Hubertus von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha

Andreas von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha

Bavarian Order of St. Hubert:

Manuel von Bayern

Leopold von Bayern?

Orden der Württembergischen Krone?:

Carl von Württemberg

Maximilian von Baden:

Bernhard von Baden:

Well, seems like I heaven't expressed myself well enough. I know the history of the orders (especially after looking through this 1859 book). So what I know is, that there are existing these two uniforms, one for the Ehrenritter and one for the Rechtsritter. Beside them there are the kind of uniforms which for example the Kaiser is wearing seen on a post above (they look similar to the uniforms worn in the order of Malta). I haven't found anything about these uniforms... (Are these some kind of officer uniforms of the order? Or just a new design that came up later?)

Well, that must have been how the ideal German general had to look like...

I hope You guys don't mind this a bit off-topic discussion...

Other pictures of him (Siegfried von La Chevallerie 1860-1950)

18. Oct 1916 (2nd from the right side)

23. November 1917:

You might want to read this (very interesting):

https://zeitreise-bb.de/die-kriegserinnerungen-des-siegfried-von-la-chevallerie/

A little contribution from me:

Ok, the one-column one seems to be the one for Ehrenritter:

Those pictures are from the book: "Geschichte des ritterlichen Ordens St. Johannis vom Spital zu Jerusalem : mit besonderer Berücksichtigung der Ballei Brandenburg oder des Herrenmeisterthums Sonnenburg"

I haven't found anything regarding the other uniforms (the ones I called Malta-like) in the book. Maybe they have been introduced later (the book is from 1859), or I did not find the right part (the book has nearly 900 pages)

That badgeless sash is weird...

Nevertheless these uniforms confuse me. I still haven't found a source were these uniforms are explained. There are these, that look pretty much like the Malta ones. Than there seems to be the "ulanen-like" one. And I found a picture of another one, that might be a Johanniter uniform with just one column of buttons

1. ) Malta uniforms:

2.)

The one Prince Woldemar wears

3.)

Are these Johanniter uniforms? (the pictures are tagged to be in the Schlossmuseum Braunfels)