BlackcowboyBS

1 hour ago, Allan J Woodliffe said:

On looking at the Hannover section of volume II of 'Orden in Deutschland und Osterreich by Klenau, page 216, he mentions the award in 1849 of a 'Schleife' (bow) to seven recipients of the KH. I am afraid that my translation of the German language is very poor. Can anyone tell me exactly what these bows were awarded for? I can find no other detailed reference to them anywhere. They seem a little 'odd' to me, but that may simply be my lack of understanding of the finer nuances of later Hannoverian awards. 

I am very interested in discovering the life story of Generalmajor Bernard Riefkugel who took part in the defence of La Haye Sainte at Waterloo, who received one of these bows.    

Well this is a very interesting topic! I hope to find out more, once I started digging into the hannoverian archives in Hannover and the private archive of the royal family in Pattensen. Bad thing, that Corona prevents me from starting. 

All I can tell you right now is, that the statutes of the Guelphic Order were changed six times during their valid existance. In the change of 1848 the bow was instituted and given to the seven people Klenau mentioned in his book. The dates you find in his book are the dates when these seven people got their knights cross, all of them got their bows in 1848! So the bow seems to be connected to the revolutionary events that took part in 1848 in Germany and Europe. Riefkugel got his knightscross for La Haye Sainte but the bow for something in 1848. 

If a person was awarded with the bow, he was permitted to carry this bow to a higher class if awarded, this happened to 2 persons. 

As said, as soon as I discover more on this or any other interesting topics, I might tell a little bit of it here, the whole story then in my book! 

But great question and Thanks for asking.  

PS: the original text of the statue was never changed, if I am talking about changes, it has to be seen as supplements, addendums or specifications

funny thing! Well I do have some old cdv's where veterans and soldiers wear their medalbars. Sometime the medals are sorted in a wrong way or the backside is shown to the front. Why ever that happend, but the crown downwards is more a political statement ? (no just kidding) I bet that this poor NCO was mad as hell, when he spotted his error on the photo! Thanks for showing it to us.

The third order on this medal bar is definitly not the BrKR but the Mecklenburger Militärverdienstkreuz, this is pretty sure. 

Gentlemen,

I have purchased this old photo for my upcoming book on the orders and medals of the kingdom of Hannover, it seems that the Gentleman shown here wears the hannoverian waterloo medal. I guess you can see it much better at the cutout, a silver medal with a head looking to the heraldic left side, a huge iron ring for the ribbon and the shroud does looks like iron too. The ribbon has a darker strip on the heraldic  left and probably on the right side too. So I guess it would fit in.

The interesting part - besides the medal - is that the photo was taken at a photographer, who had his business in New Jersey, Jersey City, 99 Montgomery Street. So our Gentleman here was probably an immegrant who made it to the US. His photo is back to Germany now, this is a nice proof of the circle of history. 

Gentlemen I'd like to hear your thoughts and comments on this.

PS: funny thing is, that the Photographer seems to be an immegrant from France, his name was Jh. A. Guiremand

Thanks Chris,

by flipping through I haven't seen any medalbar. For sure all the papers still together is even harder to get. 

On 24/10/2020 at 21:08, GdC26 said:

Could it be the Commanders cross of the Norwegian St. Olaforden (an order that from memory was ocasionally bestowed on German naval officers)? Hannoverian commander crosses (Guelphic cross and Ernst August Orden) have a similar shape, but since hte kingdom of Hannover was abolished in 1866 after Hannover picked the wrong side in hte Austro-Prussian war that seems less likely.  The Belgian aAlber order commanders cross star has a similar shape, and so does the English Guelphic order commanders grade star . 

But it is very hard to say what shape the star actually has, as part of it may or may not be obscured by the FA cross.

 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

 

 

 

Hi Sando,

I am 100 percent sure, that he is not wearing the breast star of the Hannovarian Gelphic Order! Even if I truley admire the commanders breaststar that you have posted. 

some what between 80 to 120 Euros I guess 

1 hour ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

I agree... a non combattant Silesian Eagle 1st class is as rare as hens teeth...

I have a group with white ribbon EK2, Yellow ribbon Braunscheig, and eagles 1st and 2nd class to a non combattant (and a bunch of other awards)... rare as hell... but on the flip side... noone appretiates them

HI Chris,

if you could show us a photo of this group, I would be very delighted! 

Thanks

well at least I can tell you that Freiherr Franz von Seckendorff was awarded the knights cross 2nd class of Henry the Lion in 1893. He was captain of the Fusilier Regiment 73 at this time. 

Hey Peter, no apologies needed! I haven't taken any comment here personal, it was just a discussion on medals with a lunette to protect the medal. So your question was a correct one. If my answer wasn't easy to understood then it is due to my missing english knowledge, as I am not a mother tongue. 

So all good from my side, I am learning here every day some news on orders and medals and discussion with different opinions leads to new knowledge, so I preciate it.

37 minutes ago, paul wood said:

must br a differrnt medal for that Hannover Merit medal is dated 1815. Salamanca was 1812. Flummoxed.

paul

That's what I said, I only referred to the only golden medal which I know for sure, that it has a lunette to protect the golden medal. Maybe my english is so bad, that people can not understand what I am writing. So all I want to tell Peter was, that I never heard of the salamance medal has a lunette too, but the golden merit medal from 1815 had. 

6 minutes ago, paul wood said:

So you are referring to a totally different medal from the army gold. As Alice would say curiouser and curiouser.

 

Paul

Yes, I never heard of the Salamanca Medal being covered by lunettes. But the first golden merit medals of Hannover was. thats what I was referring to. I guess this is the one, I am referring to. 

5 hours ago, peter monahan said:

I can't quite tell from the photo, but is this the one which is 'glazed' on both side - little glass covers like watch glasses?  Or am I just having a senior's moment?

 

Hello Peter, 

I don't think so, I am aware, that the the Golden Merit Medal of King George II. founded 1815 by Prince Georg in substituion of his father was covered with lunettes to protect the golden Medal. I have never heard this in responce to the Salamanca Medal. The only photo that I am aware of is shown in Klenaus Book Orden und Ehrenzeichen in Deutschland. The golden medal looks the same like the silver guelphic medal. You just can tell by the inscription if the recipient is a military guy or if he is civilian. Civilian were awarded the merit medal (which was awarded in silver and in gold), soldiers got the guelphic medal. 

well, as one famous collector once said, these Waterloo Medals are a mine field of their own. There are many copies or faked one on the market. From the quality of your photos this is hard to tell. You should examine this one with a magnifying glass to see if this is a cast or a coined piece. Follow this link to medalnet, he explains the difference. If this one is a cast, then it is not a good one.

The Suspension loop is not an original one, even if the medal itself might be. But when this was exchanged no one could tell. 

Due to the amount of waterloo medals coined there a known variations on these medals. For example the amount of the tassels tied to the flags differs. 

Great thread, I would like to add the hallmarks on an iron crown 3rd class knight from Rothe. Both hall marks could be found in the ring as well on the flags ribbon behind the heads of the eagle. I believe that this piece was awarded in 1887.

20 hours ago, GdC26 said:

Ernst August shown wearing Hanoverian orders (plus some others ....?)

What I really really like is that you can see that Ernst August is wearing his knightscross 2nd. class which he was awarded by his son Ernst August Duke of Brunswick on 13th of june 1914 in Gmund. The Duke of Brunswick followed the old tradition of the younger line of the guelphs to wear the 4th class of the guelphic order. So both Father and son wore on their medal bar the knights cross second class of Brunswick Henry the lion, as well as the 4th class of the guelphic order and the knights cross 2nd class of the Ernst August order. This is the ultimate answer to my question above, the 4th class of the guelphic order has to be compared to the knights cross 2nd class of Brunswick and not to the 4th class of the order of Henry the Lion. 

Sandro, if you can send me a high resolution scan of this photo I would be much obeliged to you. 

Gentleman thanks for the discussion! 

38 minutes ago, ArHo said:

Okay - back to Hannover, well, somehow... ?

Wow ArHo this is really amazing! I have never seen a photo of a wearer of the Ernst August Order! This is really rare. It would be a perfect addition for my books, would you be so kind to send a high resolution scan to my email address? Of course you will be mentioned in the book and copyright lies upon you. 

orden_kgr_hannover@schwarzbuch-verlag.com 

Thank you very much for showing it here! 

Thank you Laurentius and Sandro for your kind words. Well if people wanted to know more about me, they could pm me, here in this forum I have discussed matter of phaleristics and will do so in the future as well. I am not discussing things on my person. In Germany we have a saying: A gentleman enjoys and keeps silent about it! 

And as we are in a Gentlemans Forum ...

So lets go back ton Hannover, if you don't mind. 

PS: Thank you Trooper_D

Gentlemen,

I am pretty convinced that most of you have allready spotted this auction with many great items in it. 2 victoria crosses for example, but in case that one or two of you haven't seen this auction I wanted to share this link with you. There is nothing in there for me but you may find great information in the auctions cataloge. The auction is offering parts of the Griesbach collection. 

Have fun with it! 

While doing the first research and mind mapping the orders and medals of the kingdom of Hannover, I was thinking upon the 4^th class of the guelphic order.  It was founded in 1841 and even if many people called it a knights cross 2^nd class, this is not true. It was never meant to be a knights cross. If we compare it to the 4^th class of the order of Henry the Lion, we do see some similarities between them, but you cannot compare them in reality. Between their foundations lies 68 years, when the 4^th class of the guelphic order was founded, there was just the golden knights cross available in Brunswick. So the same recipients could get a 4^th class from Hannover and a golden knights cross from Brunswick. When the knights cross 2^nd class was founded in Brunswick it was much more comparable to the silver 4^th class of Hannover, besides the fact, that the Kingdom of Hannover was gone, when the knight 2^nd class was founded 1877 in Brunswick.

So what are your thoughts on this, would you compare the Hanoverian 4^th class to the knight 2^nd or the 4^th class of Henry the Lion? I am hoping on an interesting discussion here.

But for sure, they all are looking nice, when presented all together.

I bet that this is Saudi Arabia, the front side shows the Kaaba in Mecca, the place where all the muslims go for their haddsch. Maybe it is some kind of souvenier that people can aquire who made the trip to Mecca. 

The breaststar is definitly a sign for the schützenkonig. I found a similar photo while doing some research for my coming book on the orders and medals of the kingdom of Hannover. Take a look at what this Gentleman wears. 

The photo shows a Schützenkönig from Hannover, amazing how he wears the other order, the ribbon looks like a ladies ribbon folded like a bow. 

wow Thanks Claudius for reposting this amazing post from Rick, I wasn't aware of this post. great stuff, what a loss for us that he has left us much too early. 

A pretty similar romanian order is mounted to this medal bar of a German NCO

Well Nassau could be from the look of the suspension loop, but why should an artist be that ignorand to paint wrong colors of the ribbon? Or the guy has mounted his medal to a wrong ribbon, that happened from time to time. I knew some medal bars where medals are mounted to a wrong ribbon.