new world

rare case for 3st class 2nd grade 1941 version

On 3/23/2017 at 06:44, new world said:

fake Bravery

 

reverse of fake Bravery

 

Actually, this same fake Bravery was discussed an one of the forums back in 2008. I was able to find photos from 2008. Photos are not as good as the ones I posted couple days ago, but you can still see it's the same cross... 

I would be interested to see better photo of the star in the top left corner - white one on a small stand.

That star looks like 1st class and is extremely rare!!!

11 hours ago, Graf said:

Hi,

I have two Doctors crosses 1st and 2nd Grade.

Both they are  Original I explained somewhere in the Forum my opinion.

Both appear to slightly  smaller and finer then the Standard Crosses with swords, mainly the1st Grade, and there is no any signs of adaptations.

I will buy Doctors Cross only if it is made for the purpose. Any cross tha has been "adapted" by cutting of off the swords is not worth to add to your collection. I do not believe in this theory, that because they run off the purposely made ones. However it is your call  I will not buy such a cross

I have seen 1941 2nd Grade Cross for sale on eBay Germany 2-3 years ago It was sold by Prof. Pavlov son.

The main problem is that I cannot find in my files whether i saved it. Also I cannot recollect whether it was with cut off swords or not.More likely it was adapted otherwise i could have bid on it..but not sure

You have good points, however the problem is that sellers usually don't use this type of side-by-side comparison when selling. You only see a single award advertised and you have no idea if it's slightly smaller than normal cross.

As for removing the swords - fakers make awards from scratch, removing swords and applying proper finishing will not be that difficult for them.

I recall seeing such crosses for sale, however I did not like what I saw and decided to pass on them.

To me thesee 'doctor' awards were always questionable, as it is too easy to make them by cutting off the swords from regular awards.

Unless there's solid provenance we will never be sure whether such conversion was done 75 years ago or just recently.

@Vazov:

Look at the quality of this item, it's very low for such high-level award.

@922F:

I don't own this award, so can't answer your question about hard/soft enamel.

hi Vazov,

I remember this dealer, he was active about 15 years ago.

I would not put too much trust into his stories. My impression of him was that he used to exaggerate a lot. According to his descriptions almost every item he was selling was super rare and unique opportunity for a collector.

I have to admit - he sold some nice and rarer items, but not every item on his site was unique as he was trying to represent.

Very cool document!!!

It's interesting how the award is called Military Order in the document, not Bravery Order.

fake Bravery

reverse of fake Bravery

more...

so, based on the above facts - can we conclude that badges marked with asterisks were made during WWI period?

Graf, wide crown in your last pick looks like it's sterling silver Are you sure it's brass?

Saint Alexander order marked with asterisk

Thank you, this is very interesting info!

We now established that these badges were made in Austria.

I don't think the asterisk marks Red Cross badges for being war period (these were approximately from 1890-1900s, there was no war in Austria at the time).

You've got the same boxes, but in much better condition!

I checked Pavlov's book - he just has a photo of the box and does not say anything about it. Based on the fact that he put the box in section for Bravery with gold circle we can make conclusion that awards in my 1st post don't belong to these boxes. It looks like the sellers misinform us.

Also, the fact that these early crosses were made by Schwerdtner is significant discovery - Pavlov does not say so, he also does not show photo of the stamp inside of the box.

Thank you Graf.

I have few awards with the asterisk as well.

One of them is St Alexander 4th class from Boris period. It's well made award, so I am not sure your theory about them being temporary ones is valid. What would they be replaced with? Perhaps asterisk means something else...

I saw couple interesting cased Bravery awards sold in these special boxes, marked by Schwerdtner, Wien. Boxes are covered with leather, are brown in color (unlike other Bravery boxes).

These are supposedly late Alexander or early Prince Ferdinand awards.

Not sure if the crosses belong to the boxes though.

What do you think?

Here's 4th class award

3rd class award

On 8/31/2016 at 06:53, Igor Ostapenko said:

this badge was in emedals store 

 

 

What is the meaning of the * (star) mark on this badge?

ilieff,

It seems you are confusing two things here - Grand vs. Great Cross.

Note how Petrov is referring to 1st class pre-1933 as "Great Cross"? This is not the same as Grand Cross.

Grand Cross name was not used before 1933 for Civil and Military Merit awards. However, it was used for St Alexander order.

You can see evidence of this by checking award documents and boxes.

Wonderful collection!

Considering there were around 1,700 of these awarded, you collection represents roughly 1% of them.

Copy of early St Alexander star 1st class.

Was sold last year as a copy.

@Ilieff:

3. I see what you mean, but from accuracy point there were no Grand Cross awards before 1933 (except for St Alexander order). I am not sure what you mean by saying that design was unchanged. Grand Cross sets for Civil and Military Merit are very different from 1st class prior to 1933 - stars are very distinct and crosses are of larger size as well.

5. By classification I mean then Pavlov goes deep into various types of decorations, such as Swiss and French issues, glass type for Mil Merit, etc. Other authors don't get into such details. It looks like due to space limitations and other considerations you will not be going into that level of details.

Few additional suggestions:

1. Award cases/boxes. Are you going to show them too?

2. Award documents. It would be nice to see them as well.

3. Award groups.

4. Awards in wear on photographs. It would be logical complement to awards ans would give peiple ideas about how medals were worn.

5. Badges. Some badges are nicer than the orders.

6. Medal bars.

On 2/23/2017 at 10:06, ostprussenmann_new said:

This almost makes you want to not show your friends your collection.  I hope you get it all back some day.

You are correct, it's never a good idea to post bunch of expensive items on a public forum.

hi ilieff,

Very nice site, lots of work went into it. I love your professional looking photographs!

Some suggestions from my side:

1. Order of SS Cyril and Methodius.

You listed only Bulgarians, how about listing full list of awarded? It's not that long anyway.

2. For many awards you show only reverse. It would be nice to show front side as well, as some have unique features. For example, for Military Merit 5th crosses - you show front for regular version and only reverse for the one with war distinction.

Try to show both front/back for each variant.

3. Grand Cross vs 1st class

There was no Grand Cross until 1933, however for Civil and Military Merit you list 1st classes Prince and Ferdinand issues as Grand. They are really 1st class.   

4. You are missing Regency and Republican versions.

I think this was intentional, as you aim at Royal period decorations. However, Regency and Republican versions normally are shown together with Royal as they are so similar.

5. It's not clear which classification you use.

The most comprehensive classification was proposed by Prof. Pavlov in his book. I recommend you follow the same.

On 8/26/2016 at 05:07, paul wood said:

 

Igor

Never seen one before, presumably produced 1944-46, of much batter quality than the usual pieces from the period

Paul

These were produced earlier, when King Boris was alive, likely in late 1930s to early 1940s.

Then these awards were converted locally in Bulgaria into Republican version post Sep 1944, existing stock of awards was used.

I'll provide lots of feedback.

But before I do - what is the idea behind awards which appear on this site? Did you take the photos yourself or are these sourced from someone else?