new world

Oh good-- thanks for that! It is ALWAYS the abbreviations that stymie us. I had NO idea what FZU was... Frunze Zzzzzzz School or some such guess.

FZU was training school at the factory where workers learned their skill.

BTW, one of his Uchetnaya Kartochka lists medal for Liberation of Caucasus. There wasn't a medal with such name...

William

It was there during the day...

It's truly sad to see many of the categories missing.

But let's face reality - USA is currently a secondary market, with prices lagging prices in Russia / Ukraine by several months. I can understand the dealer - why offer anything here is he can sell teh same items higher directly to customers in Europe?

I guess if I were a dealer, I would still keep sold items on the web site, but marked with SOLD instead of price. A lot of collectors use dealers' sites as reference and check them freequently. If there's nothing to see the site loses traffic and those customers may not come back if situation changes in the future.

William

All I am saying - let's have some respect for past historical figures.

We are not amateurs on this forum, we know more about Soviet history than average person - so let's act like that!

As historians - let's stick to the facts, not to the trashy sensations from the media.

William

If you also look at DM's site you will also see that inventory is very very low. Many categories have no item for sale.

I've got the last Lenin DM had listed on his site.

...

all that "nonsense" is out of Siegfried Kogelfranz's story about Brezhnev in the current SPIEGEL SPEZIAL 4/2007 "Experiment Kommunismus - Die russische Revolution und ihre Erben", pages 115 - 116.

...

Christian,

why would you believe just anything written in the tabloid magazines?

Were his sttements verified by a reliable source? Anyone can publish memoirs these days, but unfortunately most of them are full of anekdotes and made up stories.

...

he was proud (and told that to anyone), that he never read Marx' "Kapital" or the writings of Lenin properly. Brezhnev never published something and never wrote his speeches himself.

...

Given realities of life in the Soviet Union I find that statement impossible to believe. Especially given Brezhnev's educational background and line of work his was in.

William

Christian,

With all due respect, where did you get this nonsense from?

You should study facts from Brezhnev's biography and then draw judgement about his education and reading habits.

Just for your information, he graduated from technical institute with engineering degree. Requirement, teaching methods and curriculum were very rigorous at such educational institutions.

After graduation he worked as an engineer, raising rapidly through the ranks. I doubt he would be any successful if he lacked education.

Upon joining the army he studied at the tank school, which is not your basic math.

Later in his career he was in charge of the metallurgical college. I doubt he would be put in such position without proper background and education.

He later became political commissar. As a general rule, those guys were extremely smart. Just so you know, to be in such position one needed to have deep knowledge of works by political writers (Lenin, Marx, Stalin, etc). I doubt that a damn person would be able to be successful in such position without background and constant updating of his skills (through reading of course).

After the war Brezhnev ran important re-building projects, which a dummy - as you try to portray him - would not be fit to undertake.

William

So did he drive it (indoors, somewhere?) or just sit in it, in a garage?

Absolutely, he was driving his cars!

I remember reading somewhere that the driver would come to pick him up in one of his fancy cars and Brezhnev would take the driving sit. He was good driver and really enjoyed navigating those cars.

Other members of Politburo and his security officers were not crazy about his passion for safety reasons.

William

One think to keep in mind - these are not market prices.

These are what two or three individuals with too much cash were bidding up on the auction. They didn't care if the price of the award was $1,000 or $10,000. These are people who don't ask "how much", they just say "I'll take it at any price". We are talking about tiny slice of the collectors community (less than 1%?).

Will this affect prices for the rest of us? You bet. During the auction Igor was seen working on his laptop, changing prices on some of his web site offerings.

William

Realized SB prices (plus auction premium):

SB Screwback - 2246 $3,250

SB Pinback - 2247 $2,000

William

2281 $1,400

2282 $320

2283 $1,200

2284 $25,000

2285 $20,000

2286 $2,400

2287 $725

2288 $600

2289 $2,800

2290 $950

2291 $2,600

2292 425

2293 $4,000

2294 $1,400

2295 $1,100

2296 -

2297 $1,400

2298 $1,700

2299 $4,000

2300 $1,100

2301 $800

2302 $900

2303 $5,250

2304 $700

2305 $700

2306 $450

2307 $220

2308 $1,500

2309 -

2310 $475

2311 $1,100

2312 $4,250

2313 $3,250

2314 $1,500

2315 $725

2316 $450

2317 $1,800

2318 $850

2319 $240

2320 $425

2321 $200

2322 $400

2323 $220

2324 $350

2325 $240

2326 $375

2327 $160

2328 $160

2329 $1,800

2330 $320

2331 $320

2332 $475

2333 $2,800

2334 $500

2335 $240

2336 $350

2337 $200

2338 $240

2339 $375

2340 $700

2341 $700

2342 $525

2343 $450

2344 $200

2345 $1,600

2346 $875

2347 $4,250

2348 $3,000

2349 $4,000

2350 $2,800

2351 $1,900

2352 $2,000

2353 $1,800

2354 $3,250

2355 $300

2356 $240

2357 $240

2358 $600

2359 $600

2360 $1,100

2361 $11,000

2362 -

2363 -

2364 $150

2365 -

2366 -

2193 $40,000

2194 $15,000

2195 $5,750

2196 $62,500

2197 $26,000

2198 $32,500

2199 $37,500

2200 $35,000

2201 $37,500

2202 -

2203 -

2204 $15,000

2205 $2,000

2206 -

2207 $14,000

2208 $2,200

2209 $7,000

2210 $8,500

2211 $11,000

2212 $2,000

2213 $24,000

2214 $2,000

2215 $20,000

2216 $150,000

2217 $42,500

2218 $17,000

2219 $17,000

2220 $1,600

2221 $1,600

2222 $30,000

2223 $60,000

2224 $14,000

2225 $24,000

2226 $4,000

2227 -

2228 $2,800

2229 $1,600

2230 $1,600

2231 $11,000

2232 $950

2233 $11,000

2234 $8,000

2235 $425

2236 $2,000

2237 $6,750

2238 $1,000

2239 $2,800

2240 $1,500

2241 $600

2242 -

2243 $2,600

2244 $3,250

2245 $11,000

2246 $3,250

2247 $2,000

2248 $280

2249 $350

2250 $4,250

2251 -

2252 -

2253 $400

2254 -

2255 -

2256 -

2257 -

2258 -

2259 -

2260 -

2261 -

2262 $75

2263 -

2264 -

2265 -

2266 -

2267 $40

2268 -

2269 -

2270 $450

2271 $425

2272 $500

2273 $47,500

2274 $7,250

2275 $1,200

2276 $4,000

2277 $800

2278 $6,000

2279 $2,600

2280 $1,800

2105 -

2106 $600

2107 $280

2108 $280

2109 $1,600

2110 $360

2111 -

2112 $500

2113 $475

2114 $300

2115 $120

2116 $300

2117 $14,000

2118 $650

2119 -

2120 $5,750

2121 $3,200

2122 -

2123 $2,400

2124 $1,500

2125 $3,500

2126 -

2127 $1,300

2128 $19,000

2129 $4,500

2130 $850

2131 -

2132 $325

2133 $600

2134 $200

2135 $200

2136 -

2137 $15,000

2138 $2,200

2139 $240

2140 $800

2141 $800

2142 $2,000

2143 $1,400

2144 $675

2145 $1,100

2146 $350

2147 $6,250

2148 $6,750

2149 $1,600

2150 $400

2151 $57,500

2152 -

2153 $200

2154 $850

2155 $325

2156 $4,000

2157 -

2158 $425

2159 -

2160 $750

2161 $575

2162 $300

2163 $140

2164 $525

2165 $2,200

2166 $425

2167 $350

2168 -

2169 $7,000

2170 -

2171 $160

2172 $300

2173 $160

2174 $2,400

2175 $1,800

2176 $325

2177 $375

2178 $7,000

2179 $575

2180 $140,000

2181 $150,000

2182 $16,000

2183 $30,000

2184 $67,500

2185 $85,000

2186 $85,000

2187 $72,500

2188 $52,500

2189 $42,500

2190 $45,000

2191 $77,500

2192 $60,000

2017 $7,250

2018 $7,500

2019 $850

2020 $2,400

2021 $12,000

2022 $400

2023 $40,000

2024 $1,400

2025 -

2026 $1,200

2027 $240

2028 $600

2029 $650

2030 $625

2031 $42,500

2032 $5,750

2033 $2,300

2034 $3,500

2035 $7,250

2036 $675

2037 $7,250

2038 $1,700

2039 $2,600

2040 $7,000

2041 $2,600

2042 $1,300

2043 $1,200

2044 $625

2045 $340

2046 $1,200

2047 $1,500

2048 $375

2049 $425

2050 $900

2051 $1,200

2052 $1,300

2053 $1,400

2054 $200

2055 $150

2056 $4,000

2057 $47,500

2058 $7,500

2059 $1,400

2060 $525

2061 $525

2062 $520

2063 $2,000

2064 $1,200

2065 $60

2066 $2,800

2067 $22,000

2068 $3,250

2069 $100

2070 $800

2071 $160

2072 $1,200

2073 -

2074 $1,800

2075 $450

2076 -

2077 $850

2078 $650

2079 $280

2080 -

2081 -

2082 $325

2083 $1,800

2084 $150

2085 -

2086 $2,200

2087 $240

2088 $450

2089 $2,000

2090 $1,600

2091 -

2092 $1,600

2093 $16,000

2094 $1,600

2095 $425

2096 $900

2097 $2,400

2098 -

2099 -

2100 -

2101 $2,800

2102 $1,200

2103 -

2104 $400

Here are realized prices for the auction (compiled by Alex Filer).

William

AUCTION

XIX

2001 $60,000

2002 $6,500

2003 $8,000

2004 $9,500

2005 $37,500

2006 -

2007 $3,250

2008 $500,000

2009 $5,000

2010 $6,250

2011 $3,250

2012 $950

2013 $2,000

2014 $1,200

2015 $1,400

2016 $6,000

About replacing real awards with fakes in museums.

I used to indirectly know this one guy, he was very talented craftsman and could make very good copies of top Soviet orders for sale to collectors. We are talking about serious stuff - high quality goldplated silver and hard enamels. You would not be able to tell the difference if you saw one on display.

Bottom line - he got into trouble with authorities when some of his products ended up in museums in place of original awards...

So, I would not be surprised if most of good-looking items on display are not real as well.

William

Friends,

Here's something for you to drool over.

I saved this old price list from 2003-2004 on my PC - look over it and think about golden days of Soviet collecting.

2003 is when prices started going up.

"

Prices of Soviet awards in Ukraine October 2003 - February 2004

ORDERS

OF LENIN (on suspension) 420-430; 460-490

OF LENIN (Mondvor) 1.600 (February 2004)

OCTOBER REVOLUTION 90-100; 110-130; 130-150

THE RED BANNER from 55;

THE RED BANNER (screwback) from 230;

ALEXANDER NEVSKY from 450; 500; 520;

ALEXANDER NEVSKY (on suspension) 800; 850; 850-900;

THE PATRIOTIC WAR, 1ST CLASS from 135

THE PATRIOTIC WAR, 2ND CLASS from 20-25

THE RED BANNER OF LABOR 14-15; 20

THE RED BANNER OF LABOR (flatback) from 30

OF FRIENDSHIP OF PEOPLES 190-220; 200 -250, 220-250;

THE RED STAR 8-10; 10-20; 25;

THE RED STAR (screwpost base) from 20;

SERVICE TO THE MOTHERLAND IN THE ARMED FORCES, 2ND Cl. 500

SERVICE TO THE MOTHERLAND IN THE ARMED FOR. 3RD Cl. 150-170; 180; 185-190;

BADGE OF HONOR 10; 12; 15

BADGE OF HONOR (flatback) from 25; 30;

FOR PERSONAL COURAGE (USSR) 320; 350; 350

FOR PERSONAL COURAGE (without USSR) 450 (with documents from Gorbachev); 550

OF GLORY 2ND CLASS 100; 140; 160

OF GLORY 3RD CLASS 23-25; 25; 25-45

MEDALS

FOR BRAVERY 8;10

MEDAL FOR BRAVERY (small suspension) 30-35; 35

USHAKOV from 320-350 (without documents); 350 -380; 420;

FOR COMBAT SERVICE 5; 7;

FOR COMBAT SERVICE (small suspension) 28-30; 35;

NAKHIMOV (from 200 without documents); 300; 350 (number > 12000)

FOR DISTINGUISHED LABOR 7; 8;

FOR A PARTISAN OF THE PATRIOTIC WAR, 1ST CLASS 90; 100

FOR A PARTISAN OF THE PATRIOTIC WAR, 2ND CLASS 60; 80; 90

DISTINCTION IN GUARDING THE STATE BORDER (neuzilber) 60-65; 60-70;

DISTINCTION IN GUARDING THE STATE BORDER (silver) 100; 120; 150

DISTINGUISHED MILITARY SERVICE, 1ST AND 2ND CLASS 50 & 40;

DISTINGUISHED SERVICE IN THE PRESERV.OF PUBLIC ORDER (neuzilber) 55-60; 60

DISTINGUISHED SERVICE IN THE PRESERV. OF PUBLIC ORDER (silver) 90-95; 100; 150

BRAVERY IN A FIRE (neuzilver) 60; 70; 70;

BRAVERY IN A FIRE (silver) 100; 120; 150;

SAVING LIFE FROM DROWNING 150; 150- 170; 160;

THE DEFENSE OF LENINGRAD 6; 10; 10;

THE DEFENSE OF MOSCOW 6; 10; 10

THE DEFENSE OF ODESSA 45; 100; 100;

THE DEFENSE OF SEVASTOPOL 45-50; 70-80; 85

THE DEFENSE OF STALINGRAD 6; 10; 10

THE DEFENSE OF KIEV 20; 25; 30;

THE DEFENSE OF THE CAUCASUS 6; 10; 10;

THE DEFENSE OF THE SOVIET POLAR REGIONS 25; 30

FOR VICTORY OVER GERMANY IN THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR, 1941-1945 from 3

30TH YEAR ANNIVERSARY IN THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR 1.5

40TH YEAR ANNIVERSARY IN THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR 1.5

VICTORY OVER JAPAN 6; 10; 10;

CAPTURE OF BUDAPEST 6; 12; 12;

CAPTURE OF KOENIGSBERG 6; 10; 10;

CAPTURE OF VIENNA 12; 15-18; 18;

CAPTURE OF BERLIN 6; 10; 10;

LIBERATION OF BELGRADE from 30; 60; 70;

LIBERATION OF WARSAW 6; 10; 10;

LIBERATION OF PRAGUE 10; 12 - 14; 16;

VALIANT LABOR IN THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR (1941-1945) 5; 5;

A VETERAN OF LABOR 1; 1.5;

VETERANS OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE USSR 4-5; 5;

FOR STRENGTHENING MILITARY COOPERATION not seen; 180; 170-180;

RESTORATION OF THE BLACK METAL ENTERPRISES from 30; 40; 40;

RESTORATION OF THE DONBASS COAL MINES 60; 70; 65;

DEVELOPMENT OF THE VIRGIN LANDS 20; 20 -25; 25;

CONSTRUCTION OF THE BAIKAL-AMUR RAILROAD 40; 40-50; 45;

DEVELOPMENT OF THE NON-BLACK EARTH REGION 55-60; 60-70; 100;

DEVEL. OF THE PETROCHEMICAL COMPLEX OF W. SIBERIA 55-60; 60-70; 200!!

20 YEARS OF THE WORKERS' AND PEASANTS' RED ARMY from 200; 220-250;

20 YEARS OF THE WORKERS' AND PEASANTS' RED ARMY (first type) 250-270; 300;

30 YEARS OF THE SOVIET ARMY AND NAVY 3; 3;

40 YEARS OE THE ARMED FORCES OF THE USSR 3; 5;

50 YEARS OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE USSR 1.5; 1.5;

60 YEARS OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE USSR 1.5 1.5;

70 YEARS OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE USSR 1.25; 1.25;

100TH YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF LENIN'S BIRTH 3; 3;

50 YEARS OF THE SOVIET MILITIA 5; 6=5;

800TH YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF MOSCOW 6; 7; 7;

250TH YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF LENINGRAD 6; 7; 7;

1500TH YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF KIEV 4; 7; 7;"

William

As they should be since the can't be researched and therefore have NO history to them.

...

Ed,

But good half of Soviet awards aren't researchable either. Take labor, pre-WW2 or partizans awards.

Some German awards are researchable in their own way. You won't get detailed citations, but military history can be traced if award is attributed.

William

hello William.Should we suppose the photo has been added too (a researched file from an officer often shows a photo)?

I think so.

I like the photo though.

Member Brian posted this on Art's forum:

"Here were some of the "hammer" prices for some of the Soviet stuff (keep in mind there is also a 12% buyer's premium on top of this). They don't seem to have the final bids posted anywhere, but here is what i remember:

Gold Head order of lenin with book: $150,000 (ten times posted reasonable estimate)

Silver head order of lenin: $43,250

Platimum head screwback orders of lenin: $14,000

Red Banner screwback (non mirror back): over $3000

RB screwback #2: i think was like $24,000

Red star with SN 18K: $1,500

BoH screwback with book SN 8K,1939: like $30,000"

William

I think this is really the end of the road of Soviet collecting for most of ordinary collectors.

Sad part is that now every seller out there will be using prices from that auction as reference point.

This stuff makes German WW2 awards look like bargains.

Igor has one Golden Head for sale for $11,000.

It's without document and number has been altered, but it's almost 15 (!!!!) less than the one sold last night.

W

...

Screwback gold-head Lenin with document - $150,000

...

That is insane!

Are you sure the number is accurate?

William

This picture was posted by a member one a collecor forum in Russia.

Medal was issued in 1967.

Friends,

Interesting update on this group.

I just talked to a person who bought this group earlier last year. Upon buying the group he ordered research and the research confirmed that last three awards were added to the group.

Again, kudos to your comments, you were right on target!

William

Auction wil take place in about 10 hours. I guess we will know the result in the next couple of days.

William