Bill Garvy

Here is their 1st cousin. . .

Yes, I think so. . .

Cores and frames. . .

Tony, I reside on the Far North-side, (West Rogers Park, Touhy & Western) St Hilary's, where my eleven year old son is in 6th grade. I have been known to attend the Northlake and Hillside shows. I will look for you. I am easy to spot, just ask Dr. Joe, the man in-the-know . . . Hey Joe, got any more of those physician's samples? Just asking. . .

Here's an unmarked example with an "innie" for the middle leaf, and two "outies" for the leaves left and right. . . hmmm. . .

What a marvellous observation, and one I, quite frankly, had overlooked! I too would be quite curious to see if there was consistency in this build characteristics by manufacturer. I also want to thank Mr. Keating for the acknowledgement of our efforts regarding our Iron Cross database on the Militaria Collecting Forum, which is evolving into quite an extensive visual and textual reference for all collectors of the Iron Cross. I would urge those of you who are not members to register (it's free) to avail yourself of this valuable reference tool. For those of you who are not members of the M.C.F., I have taken the liberty of compiling a listing of the Iron Cross 2nd Class manufacturers we already have in our database, and whether these have convex (outies) or concave (innies) oak leaves on the reverse. HB convex M convex Z (over-stamp) concave Z concave KO convex E.W convex K.A.G. convex LW convex LW (with a D on small ring) concave MM convex G concave G 800 concave W & S convex S-W convex K convex R convex Fr convex FR convex & concave WuS convex S convex A convex III convex I.R 950 convex B convex LW half moon & crown convex W concave MFH convex WILM convex +M+ convex RSCH convex "square" convex CD800 convex As you can see, the majority of the maker marked crosses were convex (25 of 29), and only one manufacturer (FR) had both convex and concave oak leaves.

Very nice, Joe, even your scans, ahem. . .

The L/13 (Paul Meybauer) is an authentic private purchase screwback model, the L/52 (C.F. Zimmermann) is, I strongly suspect, a reproduction, and this without even seeing the obverse. There are, by my current reckoning, eleven manufacturers of the screwback variety of the Iron Cross, 1939. All screwbacks were private purchase pieces. It is important to know where the maker marks are located in order to differentiate reproductions. They are as follows: L/12, C. E. Juncker, Berlin L/13, Paul Meybauer, Berlin L/16, Steinhauer & L?ck, L?denscheid L/18, B. H. Mayer's Hofkunstprageanstalt, Pforzheim L/52, C.F. Zimmermann, Pforzheim L/53, Hymmen & Company, L?denscheid L/54, Schauerte & Hohfeld, L?denscheid L/55, Wachtler & L?nge, Mittwaida L/56, Funcke & Bruninghaus L/57, Boerger & Co, Berlin L/58, Rudolf Souval, Wien L/59, Alouis Rettenmaier, Schwabisch-Gmund It is important to keep in mind only L/56 (Funcke & Bruninghaus) and L/58 (Rudolf Souval) marked the screw plate. The other manufacturers marked the cross.

Rick, You have an impressive collection of a great many of the maker marked Iron Crosses in 2nd Class! I, too, am trying to collect close to all of the maker marked varieties for the 1939 and 1914 issue Iron Cross in 2nd Class. It is great fun! Thank you for sharing!

Allan, Is the core non-magnetic? I'll bet it is. . .

A cased and boxed L/19? Outstanding!

Dan, You are being modest. You know quite a lot. Regardless, I have a question about the cross I displayed on the 1st page, posts 1 & 2. Although the core appears to be brass, the core itself is magnetic. I am going out a limb here and hypothesize the core is actually copper plated iron. I'd really like to hear some other thoughts. . .

Indeed, Micha, the similarities are indeed striking, which lends greater probability of the shared frames and cores hypothesis you alluded to earlier. You have certainly answered the question of when is a Deumer not a Gro?mann.

Micha, with all due respect, that's my point exactly. Maker mark "11" would be a Gro?mann, as is shown here on this 2nd Class example. . . Is the above example also a Deumer? My observations have shown little or no similarity between 1st & 2nd Class crosses for many manufacturers. For example, compare a "23", and there is no similarity between their 1st & 2nd Class crosses, in fact, the 1st Class resembles a Souval from the obverse. . .

Thank you, gentlemen! It really lacks the "bulkiness", for lack of a better word, of a Deschler.

The reverse. . .

This just in from my good friend Micha, otherwise known hereabouts as "motorhead". I'd like to solicit the best thinking of you gentlemen regarding the maker of this cross. I say Gro?mann, Micha says Deumer. What say you? By the way, the core is magnetic. . .

The rounded inner corners on the reverse. . .

The reverse. . .

The rounded inner corners on the obverse. . .

Dave, Here are some additional scans for you. I see no evidence of die flaws on the rim on either the obverse or reverse. I also see no evidence of file marks on the rounded inner corners on either the obverse or reverse. I hope this is helpful. In the meantime, here is the obverse. . .

and finally, the maker stamp on the reverse of the envelope of issue. . .

reverse of envelope of issue. . .

"123" maker mark on ring. . .

reverse of cross. . .