sinissa

Don’t see a lot of interest in this topic. 😊 However I promised to be back in few days … The statement (in expanded form) to which I promised to return was: ""The evidence that the boxes in which the orders were found really belong to the orders itself, is that the boxes are cut out on the inside in the shape of the order." It could be true statement, that we are unlucky that the boxes of the real Order of Merit are also cut in such a way that this same prototype also fits perfectly into those boxes too. Hereunder I am attaching a picture of the empty box of the Order of Merit II class, which shows a chamber inside a box whereas the prototype (diameter of 49 mm, provided with a screw/nut fastening) could easily fit as well (box size 87x72x32). You could also ask yourself: What makes the boxes shown in Danilov's book so different from the boxes used for real order? Judging by the pictures - nothing. The displayed boxes, in terms of color, dimensions and inscriptions, fit into the large variation of boxes made in the period 1945-1960. What is particularly strange in Danilov's book is the box shown for the class III prototype. This box is larger than the class I and II prototype boxes (probably size 133x93x23). The question that arises by itself is: why did they choose to present an order of the lowest class in the biggest box? If someone has already made so much effort to make three different boxes, both in terms of color and dimensions, for the needs of the presentation of the prototype, you would expect they will expose a first class order in the nice shiny large box. But no – here is seems to be everything just opposite. However, the main issue is that if we want to consider these boxes as an “ultimate proof of prototype's YU origin” we first need to proof that these boxes date from the same time as the prototype itself: 1945-46. I can only invite you to open Danilov’s book and judge for yourself of that big shiny box could be made in 1945-46. My conclusion: The theory of the boxes as an “ultimate evidence of prototype’s YU origin seems to be a quite naive thought.

It seems you are not interested in the answers to the questions you ask yourself. When they are offered to you, and your previous claims are shown to be possibly incorrect, you again give up on further discussion. Too bad. It would be nice if you could present at least ONE piece of evidence or at least a theory that this is a YU prototype, other than the one that it was "found in YU boxes", so that we can close this topic and definitelly accept it as “imposible to be Albanian”.

Welcome back El Ninja. Unfortunately, neither I nor anyone else can give answers to the requested questions with 100% certainty, but I can tell you my reasons for doubt. Before I begin - due to complexity of the topic, in this message I will focus only on your second (elephant) question, which, if I understood correctly, reads as follow: "If we assume that this is the Albanian Order of Bravery, then why were three classes of this order made, when the Order of Bravery per definition has only one class?" Excellent question, but certainly not “an elephant we didn’t saw". In my first post above I wrote that “the prototype was made for the purpose of some Albanian order (most likely the order for bravery)". I leave open the possibility that this prototype was made for some other Albanian order issued in 3 classes, but in my opinion it is still most likely a prototype of the Order of Bravery. Why do I think so? Because I suspect we are watching here to 3 different VERSIONS of the same order, and not to 3 different classes of a particular order. That’s why it is a prototype of an order issued in one class (not in 3 classes). There are two reasons that led me to this thought: 1. When you compare "II class" and "III class" of this order, you will notice that these two orders do not differ at all. In the textual description of Danilo's book, it is also written that the only difference is that one is completely silver-plated and the other is not. That's quite a big precedent for an YU order issued in 3 different classes. It seems to me they are so identical, that if you would today take these orders out of the boxes and mix them up, you would have only a 50% chance of getting the right order back in the right box. 2. If these were samples of an order issued in 3 classes, then I would expect on the reverse side classification marks of the order "I", "II" and "III", as with most other YU orders of that time, especially bearing in mind how similar these orders are. This is also not a case. That were my doubts about 3 classes issue. In the following days, I will come back to your second question (the boxes), and in the meantime, I would like to ask you to help me with something: Can you share a picture of the inside of the empty box of the Order of Merit for the People - Type 1? Couldn’t manage to find it quickly on internet …

If it's any consolation, this horse died long before you jumped on it. The only "evidence" that this is a YU order (box) is killed in Eatmeat's question itself: "Is it possible that this is an Albanian order in a YU box?" The assumption in that question is already made that the box does not correspond to the order. The whole discussion is nothing but a speculation as from begin. Take care

I see no reason for such a reaction, but okay, let's go step by step: - The prototype of the order of the people's army is not rejected because some of the YU authorities did not like it, but because a public competition for this order was announced and only one proposal could win. For all the others, it was known in advance that they would not be accepted. All of the above is not the case with the prototype that is the subject of this discussion. - The prototype of order for military merit is not a prototype but the 1st version of the order. It is officially accepted (as you say, also awarded) and as such cannot be compared with the prototype that is the subject of this discussion. - Order of the war banner? I have never seen this prototype. I know of two different versions of this order, but not the prototype. If you have, I would very much like to see a photo of it. All in all, with or without the prototype of the order of the war banner, nothing fundamentally changes in the uniqueness of our prototype of the order of the merit to the people, and I am afraid that this discussion also does not contribute much to the topic we starte. And let's finally return to our hypothetical speculative question: Assuming that this is a Yugoslav prototype, what could be the reason that Augustincic/Kun COMPLETELY changed the design of this order? Sarcastic answers are also welcome, just indicate them somehow, so that even those of us who are a little slower can recognize them.

This prototype is UNIQUE in YU philaristery because it is the only one known who was rejected by the YU authorities and then completely redesigned. That is one of the reasons we consider it suspicious. All the other orders mentioned above were originally accepted and were officially awarded before they were redesigned. By the way, order of brotherhood and unity was not redesigned so much. The theory that this beautiful prototype was rejected because Tito did not like it, while Enver Hoxha accept it later in a much simplified version, seems to me much more speculative than the theory that this is simply an Albanian order kept in a YU box (to preserve it after the YU-Albanian conflict in 1948). But, as many people - as many specuations 🙂

Interesting question in the post above: Assuming that this is a Yugoslav prototype, what could be the reason that Augustincic/Kun COMPLETELY changed the design of this order? Even if we imagine that somebody from the Yugoslav authorities told Augustincic/Kun that they "lack enough symbolism" would they COMPLETELY change the design or would they decide to add a few more symbols to the existing design? (speculating question indeed) The mentioned example of Order of labor proves to us exactly how the "lack of symbolism" (or any other comment on the design) was solved - they just upgrade the existing design. They didn’t rejected design and decide to make something completely different. By quick visual comparison we can see that both Order of labor’s – the prototype and the final one are quite similar in composition and shape. One was created by upgrading the other one. Off course, whatever we say now it is a speculation, but maybe someone come up with a more convincing reason for the COMPLETE change of this order.

A very interesting photo of the Order of Merit for the People in the above message – and undoubtedly also important – our very amusing discussion is still ongoing. Thanks for keeping this discussion alive Drugo. At first glance, in above photo there is no titovka cap visible on the warrior’s head. It even seems to me that the two different heads can be seen. One when looking from a distance (head whereas both sides of the face are visible), and another one when we zoom in (the head shown in the profile). Maybe it’s an optical illusion, but that’s what I see 😊 Anyway, if we don't focus only on this one photo and look at a few more photos of this order on the web, we can see that on most of the orders warrior’s head is shown in the profile and he wears a cap on his head that is most similar to the titovka (see attached). Why is than in above photo titovka not visible? Probably this "mystery" can be explained by keeping in mind that the actual size of the head on the medal is approximately 1 mm (and the cap is even smaller), which means that the slightest inaccuracy during production or damage in that place can lead to confusion. However, when we see the other works of Andrejevic-Kun and Augustincic from the time of World War II (not only orders - see also the design of the first postal stamp, the design of the first paper money or the design of the first spomenica – Russian type), we will see that the partisan at that time was always portrayed with a titovka on his head (and mostly also with a flag in his hand). My impression is that this order is not different on that topic. Curious what you think about it? One thing I completely agree with Drugo – everything we are writing here in the absence of clear documentation remains only a theory 😊

Let’s agree we disagree El Ninja. How do you know it was original? Based on what you think that was “the way it was originally done”?

There is no reason not to trust your eyes El Ninja. In any case, the design you described is hard to accept as original. Maybe it's some kind of "homemade design" or simply a failed attempt to copy this rare medal. I hope you agree that in the absence of better information, we can consider the information known so far as valid?

Thanks for your reaction El Ninja. All info about this insignia is more than welcome, especially because there is not so much available (the best I have is Bjelos article in Dinar). It is generally known that the name of this insignia changed from "golden medal" to "golden plaque" in 1958, but nothing was mentioned about the change of the insignia (back side) design. Can you please share your information source about? it is particularly interesting information that the plaque was "bound to the base by two pieces of copper wire and two aluminum plates". Thanks in advance. Kind regards

Thanks El Ninja! If I had to take a gamble, I would say that this is a box from the SFRY era (not FNRY). The contours of the coat of the arms on the box are unfortunatelly no longer so sharp enough, but based on the picture from the Krila magazine from 1958, it can be seen that on these first boxes the inscription on the inside of the box lid was slightly different (moved to the middle and there was no coat of arms). Article from the Krila magazine, no. 1 from 1958: By the way, for those who do not understand Slovenian, the attached article is dedicated to the awarding of the “Franjo Kluz” medal to two Slovenian pilots Branko Ivanuš and Milan Borišek for their achievements in international competitions. Ivanuš won sixth place in the 1953 motor aircraft auto rally in Switzerland, while in the 1955 competition in France he even managed to win. On the other hand, Borišek managed to win third place in the third world gliding championship in Sweden in 1950. Both pilots had already died in 1958, when they were awarded the “Franjo Kluz” medal. Ivanuš in 1955 in France while testing a French aircraft, and Borišek in 1950 during training at the aviation center in Vršac, Serbia.

Thanks BalkanCollector! Yes, it's a very rare box - maybe even unique. Still quite well preserved. As you can expect - I am very proud of this kit 🙂

... and the box

In an attempt to revive this Yugo forum, which unfortunately seems to be slowly dying out, I thought it would be good idea to respond to some old messages and in that way update the topic again. After all, in the last 20 years or so most YU items have been widely discussed, it is difficult to find new questions that have not yet passed this forum discussion. On this issue, I am sending a reaction to a post from 2008 on the topic "Gold Medal Franjo Kluz", which states that only three such medals and one accompanying box are known on the market. Since I managed to buy this medal with the box some 5-6 years ago, I thought it might interest the members of this forum. In the hope that we will revive this forum, I greet you warmly. Here are the pictures: