Komtur

On 15/06/2007 at 19:34, Rick Research said:

... He has GOT to be identifiable somehow.   ...

Somehow ...

On 17/01/2019 at 23:53, 922F said:

Thank you Komtur for this wonderful information, image and documentation!  The Major's bar further confirms that swords affixed to suspension ribbons indicate military division Black Eagle Order awards.  A question--the Black Eagle badge seems to be silver so would be an officer's....or 4th class.  Maybe the apparent number 4 written in by hand indicates these men received the 4th or officer's class.    Or perhaps he got promoted within the Order?  

May I ask where you found this Inhaber list and whether similar lists for other grades may be found and consulted or copied ?   I understood that Dr, Klietmann had compiled a list of persons decorated with the Black Eagle Order which was deposited in a Berlin genealogical society archive after his death. 

A bar attributed to Lt. Czivisch appeared in an Orderns-Sammlung sale catalog in the early 1950s, maybe 1954.  Unfortunately, I do not have that catalog or recall exactly what awards the bar displayed other than a 1914 Iron Cross and maybe an Albert Order.  In any case, those catalogs contained no  images.

J Jacob's book Court Jewelers of the World contains an image of the award bar of Lt. Ryssell.  [He is #1 on the list.]  

Indeed it is a silver decoration and v. d. Lippe is mentioned in the list for the knight class of this order.  In my opinion this could be a result of confusion in our understanding of the classes or simply an error in the list. It seems for me very unlikely, that he promoted within the order, even if this is not impossible.

You can find the list in the mentioned archive of the HEROLD society, where the Klietmann documents are stored. There is also a correspondence between Klietmann and Karl Victor zu Wied from 1949/50 that indicates, that this list origins from this son of the Mbret of Albania Prince Wilhelm Wied. Karl Victor wrote amongst others, that he is quite sure, that this document is incomplete. We can confirm this now by some persons we found out as holders of the order, but missing in this list, e.g. most of the dutch officers. The names and numbers Klietmann publicates are based on this (incomplete) source.

Thank you for your interesting information of sources showing other bars with the Albanian Black Eagle Order, from wich the second one I could found in my own library. Unfortunaltely I have no copies of the Ordens-Sammlung sale catalogues to look for the Lt. Czivisch bar.

Medalbar of Major a. D. Adolf von der Lippe (1875-1936)

21 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:

Komtur, who is the maker of your Johannniter-Kreuz?

J. H. Werner

Johanniterschwester Anna Petersen, geb. Haegely

11 hours ago, Glenn J said:

... However, it would seem that non Prussian citizens in Reich service (Kaisermarine for example) would receive the bow/oak leaves to subsequent awards. See Admiral Hipper for instance (Bavarian) ...

That is true and was official handling for civil service from the mid 1870ies. This was transferred for personnel in military service in exactly 1904.

Regards, Komtur.

It is correct too, that the bow (on 3rd class) and the oak leaves (on 2nd, 1st class and grand cross) was given only to Prussian individuals.

REgards, Komtur.

On 27/12/2018 at 22:59, GreyC said:

... Do (any of) you have photos of Stabsärzte or the like awarded with that medal? ...

Two example with portrait and bar of active medical officers with a Red Cross Medal:

Generalarzt Dr. Hugo Hoenow

Generaloberstabsarzt Dr. Martin Merkel

4 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

Let me get this straight: that's a RAO3 with Schleife on civil ribbon, with a swords device for a military award. I'm confused.

Possibly sword "on the ring".

There were awards in his short reign. Virchow got the Red Eagle Order 2nd class with star and oak leafes on 19th of May 1888.

3. Nachtrag zur Königlich Preußischen Ordensliste 1886:

On 02/12/2018 at 17:32, larsb001 said:

... A nice Godet chain, nothing special, but I have been looking for the Red Cross Merit medal from Württemberg for some time! ...

Yes, not easy to find!

On 02/12/2018 at 17:48, larsb001 said:

A Prussian "Ölberg Kreuz" ..

Also scarce ...

The miniatur chain of Heinrich Freiherr von Ohlendorff

5 hours ago, ixhs said:

... I am still looking for a NC bar with a "simple" RAO3 on it.

I am looking since years. But i cannot find one. ...

Yes, they are scarce too. I was lucky and found one, when I started collecting medal bars years ago. Unfortunately without a name.

1 hour ago, ixhs said:

 ... I`ve never seen a RAO3 with crown and Schleife ...

So you forgott this one?

Dr. Alphons Schäfer got the Reuß Cross of Honor 3rd class on 10th of November 1915. This was the birthday of Prince Heinrich XXVII. Reuß j. L. The decoration with crown was awarded mainly to individuals, connected to the reigning house. I suppose, that Dr. Schäfer as specialist and director of the not far located lunatic asylum in Roda was also responsible for the treatment of the because of mental illness incapable of reigning Prince Heinrich XXIV ä. L.

Regards, Komtur.

This half side enameled orders were used for constructing medal bars. The owner of the original awarded decoration could buy them for this purpose. The Godet company is known for producing them.

Regards, Komtur.

1 hour ago, Claudius said:

I believe the official name for this award would be;

Albrechtsorden Burststern zum Komturkreuz mit Schwertern am Ring

yupp, only a small confusion of german letters: Bruststern

12 hours ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

Is the 3rd Class Grossoffizier, Komtur or Offizier?

It seems, that these terms were only used for the later 3rd model. But the in 1914 awarded decoration (therefore a 2nd model 3rd class) on the Kinzel bar was identic to the later Knight class.

5 hours ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

What is the class of the Chilean Order of Merit of Vizeadmiral Kinzel? ...

2nd model 3rd class (1911-1924)

page number 61

There are two person with this order:

28.11.1915 Bischoff, KP Major (Stab IR 166)

21.5.1916 Bischoff, Oskar, Major z.D.

Regards, Komtur.

Generalleutnant Prinz Karl Anton von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen

Fürst Wilhelm von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen

There seems to be indeed no primary source. The secondary source Nimmergut (mentioned above) quotes in the case of the Hausorden von Hohenzollern with swords is Hans Möller-Witten. He is the author of Geschichte der Ritter des Ordens pour le mérite im Weltkrieg from 1935. In 1965 Möller-Witten published a short article in the Zeitschrift für Heereskunde about the Hausorden von Hohenzollern mit Schwertern. I add this article in the re-published version of 1980 (from Orden & Militaria Magazin).

Another exception for receiving a pour le mérite without a Hausorden von Hohenzollern Ritterkreuz mit Schwertern before is General der Infanterie Roderich von Schöler.

Very cute indeed