Komtur

On 30/05/2024 at 23:56, kasle said:

Well, I think it is a dead end to suppose that the article in question is just a bad researched description of Verdienstorden.

Well, using Occam´s razor I am quite confident, that this supposion is appropriate.

1 hour ago, kasle said:

I am aware of that similarity, there are just a few issues with it:
- The article clearly states "Es ist das Grosskreuz des königlichen Kronenordens" (It is a Grand Cross of the Royal Crown Order).
- The description of the ribbon fits the Kronenorden (blau Band - blue ribbon), not the Verdienstorden (blue ribbon with two golden stripes).
- According to the article, the award was worn as a neck order ("um das Hals getragen"),

whilst the Verdienstorden (Order of Merit of the Prussian Crown) was worn as a sash badge.

 

So the description seems to be as usual bad researched for some kind of yellow press. 🤔

Verdienstorden der Preußischen Krone

Not so often to be found are German medal bars with French decorations. In the case of Dr. Carl Müller (1821-1904) not only his decorations have survived. Because of his memoirs we can additionally reproduce the award circumstances.

For his Legion of Honour Knight they were quite spectacular. He got this order for his medical aid to the French balloonist Nadar and his companians after their crash with Le Géant near Hannover.

Carl Müller himself described the details as followed:

Der dritte, für mich sehr mühevolle aber auch sehr interessante Vorfall war die französische Luftballon-Aaffaire. Am 13. September erschien bei mir in höchster Aufregung der königlich französische Gesandte, Herr v. Malaret, und berichtete, der bekannte Aeronaut und Photograph Nadar sei mit seinem großen Luftballon, Géant genannt, von Paris aus Tags zuvor abgefahren und am heutigen Morgen bei stürmischem Regenwetter im Moor bei Hoya so schwer und unglücklich gelandet, daß er selbst, seine Gattin und zwölf Reisegenossen, Literaten und Liebhaber, mehr oder weniger verletzt seien und sich in um so trostloserer Lage befänden, als keine Hülfe vorhanden und niemand sie verstände. Er appelierte deshalb an meine Menschenfreundlichkeit und bitte mich in Gesellschaft seines Sekretärs mit dem nächsten Zuge abzufahren und seine verunglückten Landsleute nach Hannover zu führen. Natürlich erklärte ich mich sofort bereit, gelangte aber in Begleitung des Chirurgen Boße nur bis Wunstorf, wo mir gemeldet wurde, daß ein Arzt in Hoya den Transport per Wagen bis Eystrup und von da mit der Bremer Bahn schon bewerkstelligt habe, und daß der Zug bald eintreffen müßte. Dies geschah dann auch und abends um 7 Uhr konnte ich die ganze Gesellschaft auf Tragbahren in das nahe Union-Hotel befördern, wo für sie bereits Quartier bestellt und eingerichtet war. Fünf Stunden lang waren Meyenberg, Boße und ich bis in die Nacht beschäftigt, um alle Verletzungen zu untersuchen und die notwendigsten Verbände anzulegen. und monatelang dauerte unsere tägliche, sich auf Stunden ausdehnende Arbeit. Am schlimmsten verletzt war Herr Nadar selbst, doppelter Beinbruch und Verrenkung des linken Schultergelenks, dann seine Frau, welcher bei dem längerem Hinschleifen auf dem mit Heide bewachsenem Moore, alle Kleider fortgerissen und die ganze Oberhaut der vorderen Körperhälfte abgeschürft und blutig unterlaufen war. Außer diesen hatten noch ein Herr S. Felix und ein Zeitungsreporter schwere Verletzungen, Arm- resp. Beinbruch. Die übrigen nur Contusionen, Verstauchungen und Hautabschürfungen. Rührend war die Teilnahme der Königlichen Familie, welche täglich bei mir Erkundigungen einzog, auch die herrlichsten Früchte und andere Leckerbissen aus Herrenhausen den Verletzten zuschickte. Auch das bessere Publikum nahm herzlichen Anteil und erwies den Verwundeten große Aufmerksamkeiten. Erst zu Ende des Jahres konnte ich die letzten Kranken, Herrn und Madame Nadar und Mr. S. Felix in einem angehängten Packwagen gebettet, nach Paris zurück befördern. Bei seiner Abreise gestand mir der sehr gerührte und dankbare Herr Nadar, daß er nicht im Stande sei, mich für meine Mühe zu honorieren. Car je nái pas le sous, mais je vous enverrai mes oevres aeronautiques (Denn ich habe keinen Pfennig, aber ich werde Ihnen meine Werke über die Luftfahrt schicken). Letztere, eine große Anzahl elegant gebundene Bände, trafen denn auch als einziges Honorar ein und zieren meien Bibliothek durch ihren prächtigen Einband. Mittlerweile war Herr v. Malaret abberufen worden und durch Graf Reiset, als französischer Gesandter bei unserem Hofe ersetzt. Als letzterer erfuhr, wie seine Landsleute meine und meiner Assistenten Mühe vergolten hatten, war er außer sich, und als ich für mich selbst auf jedes Honorar verzichtete, erreichte er es, daß regierungsseitig wenigstens Meyenberg und Boße einigermaßen entschädigt wurden. Mir selbst aber wurde im folgenden Jahre mit sehr schmeichelhaftem Schreiben unter größter Formalität das Ritterkreuz der Ehrenlegion verliehen.

Sorry for adding this in German ...

7 hours ago, Graf said:

... Nevertheless if it comes with a strong provenance , then it does not diminish the collector,s and market value ...

In case of Corvisart besides lots of private papers and fotographs there were sold some other decorations with corresponding documents. Therefore the provenance seems to be reproducible.

Unfortunately I was not the winner for his Zähringer Lion Commander and his Tunesian Order of Glory Star. Just for these two decorations exist portrait of Corvisart wearing them.

9 hours ago, Graf said:

... It looks like he was awarded the Officer of LOH during Second Empire period

He did indeed. I was so lucky to get this lot too. Unfortunately the order is quite damaged. The officer cross coming with the documents is made in silver gilded. I am not sure, if this version was officially handed out in that period? At least the box seems to be a later version. Possibly some of the parts were mixt up with also sold items of his son Charles, a later General.

A few weeks ago there was sold some artefacts of the property coming from the french family de Corvisart including decorations attributed to Lucien de Corvisart, medical attendend to the emperor Napoleon III.

Among others there was sold a lot with a knight cross of the Legion of Honour type 2nd republic with to letters from 26th of August and 29th of October 1848 announcing the award. Unfortunately no name of the recipient is to be found there. As to be seen here, Corvisart indeed got this decoration on the 23rd of August 1848. So this attribution seems to be correct.

Thanks for that extensive answer. That helps a lot!

Many thanks for the addition of these fine luxury examples.I am with you, it is very more likely, that something like that or a decoration in gold was initially in the box for Dr. Defraigne.

Is it possible to estimate the date of production of the probably wrong matched commander cross in Dr. Defraignes box?

Regards, Komtur.

Thanks a lot!

In between I could find his award dates in this online source. He got the commander of the Legion of Honour on 12th of June in 1931.

As written on it, the box (and something in there) was given to Dr. Defraigne from SES ELEVES, SES AMIS. So if it was a commander cross of the Legion of Honour fitting in there, it is unlikely his officially awarded decoration. Perhaps and nowadays of unknown reasons HIS FOLLOWERS and HIS FRIENDS presented him in 1931 a restored 2nd Empire decoration as a gift? Unfortunately it will be quite impossible, to find out something about such a eventuality.

Regards, Komtur.

1 hour ago, VtwinVince said:

... St. Michael ... if real.

IMHO it is NOT.

Collecting decorations of physicians, I was stumbling over this attractive decoration Order of the Legion of Honour in Gold, Commander Cross, c. 1865.

But I wonder, if the person Louis Defrainge mentioned on the top of the case lived between 1876 and 1946, how could he have been awarded a commander of the 2nd empire?

How could this ensemble be explained?

Experts of this order, please enlighten me!

Thanks in advande,

Komtur.

Interestingly if the decoration was single mounted contrary to the Prussian bars the pentagonal style was often to be seen.

On 09/04/2024 at 00:29, VtwinVince said:

Yup, completely insane price when you take in to account the damage to the White Falcon and the fact that the bar needs restoration and will therefore be messed with.

I don´t think so, because I´ve never seen one of the 25 for 1870/71 awarded knights 1st class of the White Falcon on an authentic medal bar. Beside this I only know one other bar with the absolutely scarce XX years service cross of Saxe-Weimar. Taken additionally the current marked pices of an 1870 Iron Cross 2nd class with Oak Leaves and a Red Eagle Order 4th class with smooth arms in perfect condition, the price ot that medal bar (+ ribbon bar!) wasn´t "insane" at all. In the end for me it was a singular chance and I am sure, that such a combination will not come across again for years. In a price catalogue IMHO it should get a *star* for "fancy price".

And yes, I messed with it 😱

19 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

 ... Saxon Frack ...

Is it a "Frack"? 🤔

Das Buch vom Schwarzen Adler-Orden. Stillfried-Rattonitz, Rudolf Graf von. Verlag Editio Militaris 2011

There you find all recipients. But it must be the reprint version of 2011 (!), because this is inclusive the edition of 1901 (recipients 1901-1901), Supplement 1908 (recipients 1901-1907) and addition of Eckart Henning/Werner Seeger from 1973/74 (recipients 1909-1918(34)).

Regards, Komtur.

2 hours ago, Shezx said:

... I found a medal bar made by Godet and the backing fabric looks like mine. This kind of backing fabric is unusual to see. ...

 

Sorry for the poor quality pictures 🤔

Here are better ones:

1 hour ago, Stogieman said:

Someone was very lucky!

Why? 🤔

46 minutes ago, pinpon590 said:

... Wagner made ?? ...

 

 

 

No.

2 hours ago, pinpon590 said:

 

No, that's a commander cross : vertical loop and height 8 cm.

 

An other exemple, who has been sold around 4500$ on emedals...

 

https://www.emedals.com/collections/europe-germany-german-states-prussia-orders-order-of-hohenzollern/products/prussia-kingdom-a-house-order-of-hohenzollern-commanders-cross-with-swords-c1914-g44405?variant=46127896985877

That was yesterday on Ebay indeed one of the very scarce awarded Komturkreuz with swords by Wagner in silver gilded from 1917/18.

The linked cross sold by Emedals is not one of the awarded crosses before 1918. IMHO these could be made by Zimmermann before and after the war e.g. for private purchase. This type of inisgnia was also given by the exiled Kaiser in the later Doorn period.

Compare the Wagner cross (awarded in 1918 to Generalleutnant von Eberhardt) :

and a Zimmermann (?) cross (given to Dr. Adalbert Remmert in 1932 by the exiled Kaiser):

On 15/01/2024 at 17:15, JohanH said:

... BTW. Does it exist any rolls over awarded orders? I would like to know the exact date for my guy. 

He got a 1st class knight without swords. 

The awards are mentioned for the years before in some editions of the Hof- und Staatshandbuch Baden (e.g. 1910).

9 hours ago, dwmosher said:

A new addition to this thread.  Hopefully, the combination is unique enough to identify an otherwise unknown company-level Prussian officer.

 

Dave

Not necessarily an officer and no chance for identifying.

Generalmajor Oskar Traeger (1865-1937)

Professor Max Bernhardt