Komtur
-
Posts
1,284 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
20
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Blogs
Gallery
Events
Store
Posts posted by Komtur
-
-
Many thanks for this very interesting addition. It shows, that there was a notification of the serial number of the order on the Orders Chancellery papers.
As mentioned above, it therefore should be easy for the office staff, to correlate a numbered insignia to a person - if they condescend to do so ...
Kind regards, Komtur.
0 -
The nice group of the Honorary Member 5th Class of the Royal Victorian Order for the station master at Homburg v. d. H. Rudolph Stirn brought me again to the point, to speculate about the numbering of this order.
Because of the often personalized British decoration, it is possible to relate the numbering of this order in medal groups to a person and a awarding date. More difficult is the situation for Honorary Members, where we need more information by documents, as e. g. we have for Rudolph Stirn.
There already seems to exist lists, where collectors tried to relate these numbers to awarding dates. Unfortunately I was not able to get access to these lists.
Surprisingly it was possible in a relatively short time, to find a few personalized groups of Knights and Members of the Royal Victorian Order by searching the internet. I arranged these by the awarding date. In this way one get a frame work of some use for ranging a numbered order referring its fabrication period. Especially for groups of Honorary Members it can help to identify the owner by using other sources.
Numbers not fitting in the numerical order could be the result of returned and again issued insignia. On the other hand it is not certain, if the Orders Chancellery dispense the decorations always and in consequence by the numerical order of the insignia.
The emission dates of the insignia marked with No. 1 is taken from the book The Royal Victorian Order by Peter Galloway.
I would be glad, if someone could add the still existing lists or single data of other personalized groups of numbered Royal Victorian Orders.
Member versus Honorary Member
GCVO 01.05.1902 9 Wellington, 4th Duke of
GCVO 12.06.1947 339 Lascelles, Sir Allan
KCVO 00.07.1901 1 no personalization
KCVO 03.06.1931 243 Harwood, Ralph Endersby
KCVO 18.05.1965 952 Oeftering, Heinz Maria
KCVO 11.06.1977 1186 Cave, Richard Philipp
CVO 00.07.1901 1 no personalization
CVO 22.08.1902 C40 Hervey, Frederick Alfred John
CVO 14.06.1912 C540 Ninnis, Belgrave
CVO 24.10.1971 1765 Edmonds, John Christopher
CVO 01.01.1973 1851 Hill, Ronald John
MVO4 11.05.1896 without Hoskyns, Peyton
MVO4 00.08.1901 1 no personalization
MVO4 01.07.1904 229 Stanley, Victor Albert
MVO4 01.07.1904 308 Gilbert, Friedrich
MVO4 19.10.1910 789 Williams, Walter Kent
MVO4 24.07.1911 866 Waddington, Charles Willoughby
MVO4 12.12.1011 887 Bamber, Charles James
MVO4 12.12.1911 903 Creagh, Henry Dopping
MVO4 10.01.1912 876 Buist, Arthur Hunter
MVO4 21.5.1920 without Rhodes, Arthur Tahu Gravenor
MVO4 08.06.1939 536 Birdwood, Christopher Bromhaed
MVO4 01.01.1947 1526 Stone, Albert William
MVO5 28.05.1901 without Clarke, Edward Stanley
MVO5 00.10.1901 1 no personalization
MVO5 11.10.1901 5 Stirn, Rudolph Adam
MVO5 09.11.1902 without Brett, Maurice Vyner Balliol
MVO5 11.08.1903 44 Fitzhugh, Terrick Charles
MVO5 04.02.1912 375 Green, Benjamin Stevens
MVO5 22.06.1914 439 Sotheby, Herbert George
MVO5 11.05.1937 599 Evans, Alfred William
MVO5 02.06. 1973 723 Aubrey, Ronald Henry
MVO5 01.01.1969 1186 Hawkins, Charles Edward
MVO5 03.06.1978 1487 Schopmann, Edward Victor
1 -
Eduard Bornhausen
RVO5 15th of June 1907 as Lieutenant and Adjutant Infantery Regiment von Goeben No. 28 on the occasion of unveiling of statue of field marshal teh Duke of Cambridge in London.
(Risk, Pownall, Stanley and Tamplin: Roayl Service Vol. II, p. 228)
0 -
If you sometimes decide, to give this portrait away, I would be glad to buy it
0 -
Kanalbauinspektor Friedrich Gilbert
15. Juni 1895: Preußen, Roter Adlerorden 4. Klasse
1. Juli 1904: Großbritannien, Viktoria-Orden 4. Klasse
19. August: Preußen, 1904 Kronenorden 3. Klasse
21. Juli 1905: Oldenburg, Hausorden Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse
6. November 1909 (Tragegenehmigung veröffentlich): Russland, St. Annenorden 3. Klasse
0 -
16 minutes ago, BalkanCollector said:
Amazing! Do you have any information about the man?
Unfortunately not.
0 -
Another one.
0 -
Hucke got the 4th class in 1868. Unfortunately these early editions of the Ordens-Listen did not mention the exact date of the awards.
Regards, Komtur.
0 -
If you tell me the name, I can give you the date.
0 -
The bow indicates, (1) that the Person wearing the 3rd class was awarded the 4th class of the Red Eagle Order before and (2) that he is a Prussian subject.
The Oakleaves indicate (1) that the Person wearing this order was awarded all lower classes of the Red Eagle Order before and (2) that he is a Prussian subject.
Regards, Komtur.
1 -
5 hours ago, redeagleorder said:
Can anyone shed some light on why this bar has an officer's peacetime Saxe-Ernestine Order but only an enlisted man's SCG War Medal for WW1?
The duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha gave his house order liberally to his former people even after 1918. Therefore it´s quite possible, that a servant or someone similar later in a lower middle-sized class position got the knight 2nd class.
0 -
-
9 hours ago, laurentius said:
... a silver (?) China-denkmünze on bow-rbbon. My question is, was this award given to women during the time of the Boxer-rebellion. ...
Yes.
0 -
3 hours ago, ixhs said:
And that´s the end of the story - in 1942. ...
The document confirms my suspicion, when an why the reclaim of orders stopped. The investigations were difficult and often without success. It was stopped to disburden the administration (Um die Verwaltung ... zu entlasten ...).
0 -
3 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:
Although I seem to remember that the official decision not to recuperate iron Crosses only came about later... in this case it was already authorized in 1910
The official decision was in 1913 (see document 1 in #8). But as written in this document too, there was a long time before without an offical instruction a custom, to left the Iron Crosses of 1870 by request with the family: ... wie sie für das Eiserne Kreuz wegen der Zurückbehaltung durch die Hinterbliebenen bereits in Übung ist.
An example for this custom exercised in 1894 (!) are the documents 3/4/5 and the medal bar of Dr. König in #8. These show the same procedure as in your document of 1910.
0 -
5 hours ago, laurentius said:
... Does this mean that this routine didn't take place during WW2? I think that during the war the dire need for precious metals was quite high. ...
In the end it was a question of effort and profit. It seems the administrative effort, to find out, who of the deceased person got the relevant medals or orders decades before and then force the famliy to return these decoration, wasn´t economically efficient. This was especially valid for the severe later war years. Then the administration simply had other problems.
0 -
56 minutes ago, laurentius said:
... I have 2 questions, what happened to the medals after they had been handed back to the authorities and why didn't they take the RAO 4th class? It's also made of silver, so there is value in it. ...
The so called Abwicklungsstelle der früheren General-Ordenskommission took after 1918 also the silver Red Eagle Order 4th class back. It seems, after 1938 they were mainly interested in gold, even if it was only a small amount, as for the Crown Order 4th classes thin medaillon.
51 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:I assume there was a raw material value and not a commercial value? Strangely all of the awards on the paper are without swords .. did it include military awards?
Yes, see above. As directed in 1913 by the Prussian King, the bravery awards could be left with the surviving members of the family: Ferner erteile ich der bezüglich vor dem Feinde erworbenen Orden und Ehrenzeichen der General-Ordenskommission die gleiche Erlaubnis, wie sie für das Eiserne Kreuz wegen der Zurückbehaltung durch die Hinterbliebenen bereits in Übung ist.
1 hour ago, Chris Boonzaier said:Interesting! I was just about to type that I thought may be relevant for Prussia, but not the other Länder.
The EK was not an issue as there was a law passed just before WW1 saying they did not need to be returned?
I am quite sure, that similar regulations were determined by the German States as parts of the Weimarian Republic, wich succeeded the former monarchies in the matter of law and right (e.g. Bavaria, Saxony ...), even if I can´t prove it with documents.
In case of the Iron Cross it was codified earlier, that by request the medal could be left with the family. The exact date of this regulation I unfortunately do not remember, but I could search for it in the documents.
But I can show by the documents for the Iron Cross on the noncombatant ribbon of Dr. König an example, how this was performed by the General-Ordens-Commission.
0 -
-
seinem lieben ... zur Erinnerung
0 -
On 15/06/2007 at 19:34, Rick Research said:
... He has GOT to be identifiable somehow.
...
Somehow ...
0 -
On 17/01/2019 at 23:53, 922F said:
Thank you Komtur for this wonderful information, image and documentation! The Major's bar further confirms that swords affixed to suspension ribbons indicate military division Black Eagle Order awards. A question--the Black Eagle badge seems to be silver so would be an officer's....or 4th class. Maybe the apparent number 4 written in by hand indicates these men received the 4th or officer's class. Or perhaps he got promoted within the Order?
May I ask where you found this Inhaber list and whether similar lists for other grades may be found and consulted or copied ? I understood that Dr, Klietmann had compiled a list of persons decorated with the Black Eagle Order which was deposited in a Berlin genealogical society archive after his death.
A bar attributed to Lt. Czivisch appeared in an Orderns-Sammlung sale catalog in the early 1950s, maybe 1954. Unfortunately, I do not have that catalog or recall exactly what awards the bar displayed other than a 1914 Iron Cross and maybe an Albert Order. In any case, those catalogs contained no images.
J Jacob's book Court Jewelers of the World contains an image of the award bar of Lt. Ryssell. [He is #1 on the list.]
Indeed it is a silver decoration and v. d. Lippe is mentioned in the list for the knight class of this order. In my opinion this could be a result of confusion in our understanding of the classes or simply an error in the list. It seems for me very unlikely, that he promoted within the order, even if this is not impossible.
You can find the list in the mentioned archive of the HEROLD society, where the Klietmann documents are stored. There is also a correspondence between Klietmann and Karl Victor zu Wied from 1949/50 that indicates, that this list origins from this son of the Mbret of Albania Prince Wilhelm Wied. Karl Victor wrote amongst others, that he is quite sure, that this document is incomplete. We can confirm this now by some persons we found out as holders of the order, but missing in this list, e.g. most of the dutch officers. The names and numbers Klietmann publicates are based on this (incomplete) source.
Thank you for your interesting information of sources showing other bars with the Albanian Black Eagle Order, from wich the second one I could found in my own library. Unfortunaltely I have no copies of the Ordens-Sammlung sale catalogues to look for the Lt. Czivisch bar.
0 -
Medalbar of Major a. D. Adolf von der Lippe (1875-1936)
.JPG.11d50e90a08b0ac7f6522387125230b0.JPG)
0 -
21 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:
Komtur, who is the maker of your Johannniter-Kreuz?
J. H. Werner
0 -
Johanniterschwester Anna Petersen, geb. Haegely
0
The Numbers of the Royal Victorian Order
in Great Britain: Orders, Gallantry, Campaign Medals
Posted · Edited by Komtur
Some additions followed. Unfortunately I can no more add them to the first post. Therefore here the new list:
GCVO 01.05.1902 9 Wellington, 4th Duke of
GCVO 22.08.1902 20 Laking, Francis Henry
GCVO 25.04.1908 272 Kühnel, Arnold August Blichert
GCVO 21.07.1909 293 Japan, Prince Kuni von
GCVO 24.06.1911 315 Moore, Arthur William
GCVO 04.02.1912 364 Charles, Richard Henry Havelock
GCVO 26.01.1912 361 Rundle, Henry Macleod Leslie
GCVO 23.06.1936 589 Murray, Malcolm
GCVO 12.06.1947 339 Lascelles, Allan
GCVO 02.01.1950 724 Macgeagh, Henry Davies Foster
GCVO 19.06.1966 861 Nasser, Sharif Hussein bin
GCVO 01.01.1976 952 Charteris of Amisfield, Martin Michael Charles
GCVO 13.06.1998 1113 Ford, Edward
KCVO 24.08.1900 ohne Stephen, Alexander Condie
KCVO 00.07.19011 keine namentliche Zuordnung
KCVO 23.07.1901 3 (cross) K3 (star) Bennett, William Henry
KCVO 11.08.1903 52 Fawkes, Wilmot Hawksworth
KCVO 15.06.1905 K102 Egerton, Alfred Mordaunt
KCVO 10.06.1908 K136 Orloff, Prince Vladimir
KCVO 09.11.1908 42 Gildea, James
KCVO 19.06.1911 260 Wodehouse, Edwin Frederick
KCVO 26.09.1913 K273 Robertson, William Robert (1931 Rückgabe nach Aufstieg zum GCVO)
KCVO 03.06.1918 K340 (cross) 340 (star) Worthington, Edward Scott
KCVO 29.07.1925 K464 FitzMaurice, Maurice Swynfen
KCVO 03.06.1931243 Harwood, Ralph Endersby
KCVO 26.09.1931 K526 Hendry, Alexander
KCVO 01.01.1932 K273 Baillie, Albert Victor (zurückgegebene Insignie von W. Robertson)
KCVO 01.01.1932 543 Levita, Cecil Bingham
KCVO 04.06.1934 558 Eliot, Montague Charles
KCVO 19.07.1935 K576 Boyd, Harry Robert
KCVO 11.05.1937 593 Still, George Frederic
KCVO 08.06.1939 K624 Ponsonby, George
KCVO 10.06.1948 K670 Kerr, Howard
KCVO 01.01.1949 K632 (cross) 632 (star) Colles, Ernest Dudley Gordon
KCVO 05.06.1952 701 Barrington-Ward, Victorr Michael
KCVO 20.10.1957 K819 Spender, Percy Claude
KCVO 02.06.1962 K815 Lloyd, Humphrey Clifford
KCVO 10.06.1961 K892 Smallpeice, Basil
KCVO 18.05.1965 952 Oeftering, Heinz Maria
KCVO 14.02.1966 960 Stow, John Montague
KCVO 12.06.1976 1165 Fleming, William Launcelot Scott
KCVO 11.06.1977 1186 Cave, Richard Philipp
CVO 00.07.1901 1 keine namentliche Zuordnung
CVO 11.10.1901 C10 Vanden-Bempde-Johnstone, Alan
CVO 22.08.1902 C40 Hervey, Frederick Alfred John
CVO 11.08.1903 C104 Maxwell, John Grenfell
CVO 10.02.1904 C41 Waller, Stanier
CVO 15.04.1907 C305 Hall, Francis Henry
CVO 10.06.1908 C384 Hamilton of Dalzell, 2nd Baron
CVO 24.06.1909 C483 Harrison, Charles Edward
CVO 29.06.1910 C460 Gilmour, Robert Gordon
CVO 14.06.1912 C540 Ninnis, Belgrave
CVO 25.06.1912 C530 Watson, James Kiero
CVO 07.07.1922 C761 Newport, Alexander Charles William
CVO 14.05.1923 C780 Down, Richard Thornton
CVO 03.06.1925 C740 Gore, St. John Corbet
CVO 16.10.1925 C564 Hope, Herbert Willes Webley
CVO 27.06.1927 C864 Hodgson, Patrick Kirkman
CVO 03.06.1927 C861 Lloyd, Wilford Neville
CVO 06.07.1927 C85 Ingram, Alexander Gordon
CVO 03.06.1931 C484 Russell, Reginald Edmund Maghlin
CVO 02.01.1933 C846 Chitty, Walter Willis
CVO 04.06.1934 C921 Share, Hamnet Holdtich
CVO 11.05.1937 C974 Gibbs, Lancelot Merivale
CVO 01.01.1944 C1065 Bowden, John
CVO 08.06.1950 1129 Howe, Ronald Martin
CVO 01.01.1952 1145 Jones, Oscar Philip
CVO 01.01.1954 C826 Bingley, Robert Albert Glanville
CVO 16.02.1956 1254 McLaughlan, Roy James Philip
CVO 24.10.1971 1765 Edmonds, John Christopher
CVO 01.01.1973 1851 Hill, Ronald John
CVO 15.06.1974 1888 Treby, Leslie Alfred John
CVO 15.06.1996 2487 Parsons, Kenneth William
MVO4 11.05.1896 ohne Hoskyns, Peyton
MVO4 00.08.1901 1 keine namentliche Zuordnung
MVO4 24.12.1901 34 Childs-Clarke, Charles
MVO4 22.08.1902 88 Wyatt, Thomas Henry
MVO4 09.11.1902 104 Harbord, Charles
MVO4 21.04.1903 112 Warren, Herbert Augustus
MVO4 09.10.1903 188 Mundy, Godfrey Harry Brydges
MVO4 05.05.1904 238 Burr, John Leslie
MVO4 01.07.1904 229 Stanley, Victor Albert
MVO4 01.07.1904 308 Gilbert, Friedrich
MVO4 12.08.1904 247 Pasley, Thomas Hamilton Sabine
MVO4 13.07.1905 351 Walsh, George Harry William
MVO4 11.09.1905 21 Tully, Thomas
MVO4 11.03.1906 430 White, Herbert Southey Neville
MVO4 15.03.1906 467 Hume, Charles Vernon
MVO4 05.06.1906 463 Bird, Stanley
MVO4 25.04.1908 227 Vaughan, John Charles Tudor
MVO4 05.04.1909 701 Cameron, John Ewen
MVO4 29.04.1909 698 Williamson, Adolphus Huddlestone
MVO4 19.10.1910 789 Williams, Walter Kent
MVO4 07.01.1911 806 Grant, Robert Sidney Francis
MVO4 12.04.1911 809 Beasley, Francis Adams
MVO4 24.07.1911 866 Waddington, Charles Willoughby
MVO4 17.10.1911 90 Way, Bromley George Vere
MVO4 12.12.1011 887 Bamber, Charles James
MVO4 12.12.1911 903 Creagh, Henry Dopping
MVO4 04.01.1912 877 Fraser, Hugh Joseph
MVO4 10.01.1912 876 Buist, Arthur Hunter
MVO4 04.02.1912 824 Goodenough, William
MVO4 14.06.1912 912 Cuthbertson, Edward Boustead
MVO4 24.04.1914 914 Hodge, Michael Henry
MVO4 22.06.1914 921 Terry, Robert Joseph Atkinson
MVO4 09.07.1915 82 Faviell, Douglas
MVO4 01.11.1915 933 Williamsm, Thomas Christopher Harry
MVO4 15.08.1916 931 Sheppard, Eustace Graham
MVO4 15.08.1916 959 James, Alfred Henry Cotes
MVO4 14.07.1917 1019 Thresher, James Henville
MVO4 02.08.1919 1066 Reyne, Gerard van Rossum
MVO4 21.05.1920 ohne Rhodes, Arthur Tahu Gravenor
MVO4 27.02.1921 595 Poynder, Frederick Sinclair
MVO4 03.06.1922 1137 Nimmo, Frank Hutton
MVO4 07.07.1922 1134 Corson, Eric Reid
MVO4 03.06.1924 1058 Miles, George Edward
MVO4 01.01.1925 1052 Bowes-Lyon, Ronald George
MVO4 10.08.1925 1211 Commander Kenneth Michell
MVO4 27.06.1927 1275 Moore, Norman Cameron
MVO4 07.08.1927 1218 Griffiths, George
MVO4 23.08.1930 1304 Bardwell, William Scott
MVO4 01.01.1931 1313 Fellowes, Edmund Horace
MVO4 10.08.1931 1305 Denison, Edward Conyngham
MVO4 08.08.1932 1307 Woodhall, Eric Langton
MVO4 21.11.1934 1330 Quill, Raymond Humphery
MVO4 23.07.1937 1389 Onslow, Richard Francis John
MVO4 08.06.1939 536 Birdwood, Christopher Bromhaed
MVO4 24.06.1943 1419 Gault, James Frederick
MVO4 01.01.1945 1450 Stainton, Lewis
MVO4 01.01.1947 1526 Stone, Albert William
MVO4 01.01.1952 1557 Ratcliffe, Egbert Edwin
MVO4 31.12.1983 2845 Gost, Leonard John
MVO5 28.05.1901 ohne Clarke, Edward Stanley
MVO5 00.10.1901 1 keine namentliche Zuordnung
MVO5 11.10.1901 5 Stirn, Rudolph Adam
MVO5 09.11.1902 ohne Brett, Maurice Vyner Balliol
MVO5 11.08.1903 44 Fitzhugh, Terrick Charles
MVO5 12.12.1911 428 Jones, Frederick Theodore
MVO5 04.02.1912 375 Green, Benjamin Stevens
MVO5 22.06.1914 439 Sotheby, Herbert George
MVO5 11.10.1920 522 Newmarch, Henry Clarence
MVO5 07.07.1922 529 Fairfield, Samuel
MVO5 07.07.1922 530 Enright, Daniel Patrick Joseph
MVO5 05.08.1922 578 Gordon, David Russell
MVO5 02.06.1923 542 Joist, Henry John Thomas
MVO5 03.06.1931 571 Crouch, Walter George Collingwood
MVO5 03.06.1932 586 Harwood, Captain Robert
MVO5 29.07.1932 589 Barrett, Henry Gulliver
MVO5 11.05.1937 599 Evans, Alfred William
MVO5 30.10.1945 695 Skipworth, Alber
MVO5 01.01.1946 700 Wakeham, Frank
MVO5 10.06.1948 744 Dadd, Frederick James
MVO5 16.07.1956 646 Taylor, Geoffrey Lyndon
MVO5 28.10.1958 732 Rathje, Otto
MVO5 02.06. 1973 723 Aubrey, Ronald Henry
MVO5 01.01.1969 1186 Hawkins, Charles Edward
MVO5 03.06.1978 1487 Schopmann, Edward Victor
Dames of RVO
GCVO 16.06.1990 L.43 Smith, Patricia
CVO 11.05.1937 C1 L Colville, Helen Cynthia
CVO 11.05.1937 C2 L Graham, Helen Violet
CVO 11.05.1937 C4L Watson, Edith Margaret
CVO 30.04.1974 L.82 Armfelt, Wava Kitty
MVO4 11.05.1937 2L Howland, Cicely
MVO4 11.05.1937 4L Davies, Rosina
MVO4 01.01.1966 42L Minto, Sheila Allison
MVO4 25.06.1990 L107 Bjarnadottir, Vigdis
MVO5 01.01.1967 L103 de Rohan, Dolores Malita
MVO5 03.06.1978 L93 Hill, Sonia