Veteran

As an addition to this former post, changes in the rules of awarding the CCV are confusing, to say the least. The first to be created was the 1914-1918 CCV, with a distinctive ribbon mostly dark green. It appeared in the 1930s. It replaced an ENGAGE VOLONTAIRE clasp previously established to be worn on the 1914-1918 Commemorative medal. The reverse was dated 1914-1919, or not dated. Then it appeared that a small number of survivors of the 1870-1871 war against Germany might still be around. Two varieties of a second type (struck by the Paris Mint) became available, with the appropriate dates on the reverse and the same ribbon mostly dark green as the 1914-1918 croix de guerre ribbon. The 1870-1871 type is very scarce. After WW2, in the 1950s, a new CCV with a new ribbon (mostly red as the 1939-1945 croix de guerre ribbon) and the 1939-1945 dates was created. The stricking by the Paris Mint was similar to the previous CCV. No clasp. This is the medal shown on the medal bar. The dates are difficult to see in the lower part of the round center of the cross's center. When further conflicts appeared, CCVs were required. It was then decided that the 1939-1946 cross would be changed into an all wars cross, without dates on the reverse and clasps to indicate the wars when the cross was earned. Later, the nice "florentine bronze" colour of the metal was changed to the glary goldish metal now in use. Men who received the 1939-1945 CCV tend to wear their cross without a clasp, since it was awarded with its own ribbon and dates on the reverse of the cross. More recent awardees will wear the clasp (clasps) they are entiltled to, naturally. Regards Veteran

Hello Christophe This post has been running for quite a while now. This is what I can contribute to the subject. The very first picture showing a Croix du Combattant volontaire is an interesting combination of a first type 1914-1918 cross (without the dates) with a 1939-1945 ribbon. Quite legitimate in its own right, it is nevertheless a "mule"; the owner felt he thought the 1rst type (privately made and sold) cross looked better than the definitive type which was struck by the Paris Mint. The ribbon proves he was intitled to the 1939-45 cross, and as long as no one looked at its reverse, it was quite acceptable. The Croix des combattants volontaires, as you underlined, was only available to men who : 1. Earned the Croix du combattant because they belonged to a unit mentioned on the officiel list of combattant units, at the right time and for the appropriate length of time, or who were wounded or earned a citation or took part in the required number of recognised battles ("combats class?s"). 2. Had voluteered for the duration of the conflict for which the combattant cross was earned. When these two conditions existed, the Croix du combattant volontaire (CCV) could be obtained, but it had to be requested and officially granted, a numbered official brevet being issued. One cannot decide he is intitled to the cross and wear it. Once it has been granded, it counts as a "titre de guerre" as do citations and wounds received in combat. I am not sure it could be awarded posthumously. Holders of the CCV wear BOTH CROSSES as shown by this group : Professionnal soldiers who are engaged in combat during their military carreer, as "regulars" or as "contract soldiers" which is the case for men in the Foreign Legion, are NOT INTITLED to the CCV. On the other hand, men who joined the Foreign Legion during the war as volonteers for the duration, WERE INTITLED to the CCV. I hope this contributes to making things a little clearer. The muddle between both awards is understandable. Best regards Veteran

Brian These two soldiers are French. The smaller man is a Chasseur alpin ("cor de chasse" or hunting horn). Dark blue uniform (chasseurs) and beret (alpins) . 22nd Batallion. Period : between WW1 and WW2 since this man wears a "fourrag?re" meaning his batallion won at least 2 Mentions in dispaches during WW1. If the number on his uniform is 22, then the fourragere is M?daille militaire (4 mentions in dispaches) which is yellow with green. The taller man is probably a horseman. The regimental number 19 could be white on a black background. In which case he would be a dragoon. The long sword should be straight (latte). The slightly curved sword was normally issued to light cavalry (hussards, chasseurs ? cheval) and other mounted units (artillery, train des ?quipages, etc..). His uniform could be the light blue (bleu horizon) worn during WW1 and gradually abandonned after 1928. By 1935, the number of dragoon regiments had been reduced to 12. Neither men wear any medals or decorations. They are post-WW1. This would therefore mean they were national service men between 1919 and 1930. Which is consistant with the date 1926 on the reverse of the photo. The photograph also illustrates an other trait of French conscription : shorter men went to Infantry (especially Chasseurs) and taller men to Cuirassiers and Dragoons, as well as garrison artillery. Hope this helps Veteran

Janson According to Andr? Charles Born?'s book (1985) this has been the normal pattern for the Decoration militaire since 1952. Regards Veteran

Hello Matt This is indeed a very scarce award, and the papers with the known origin make it absolutely rare. Since it is part of your own heritage, I can imagine how precious it must seem to you. If you get enough additionnal information about it, it would deserve a paper in one of the collectors' magazines. Congratulations Veteran

Marc It really is a "half-size" rather than a miniature. In those days, orders were constantly worn even in civvies. Non military recipients, who were a significant number of the members of the Reunion, tended to wear such reduced sized badges, which was also true for the Legion d'honneur. True miniatures were also available. They were occasionnally mounted with other awards on a gold backing. All this was quite official. Best regards Veteran

Hello Eric A very scarce award. Two reasons to this : First : only 1.364 knights ever were created before March 31, 1814; French military 462 / French civilians 407 / foreigners 495. An additionnal 190 in 1815 (100 days period ending with Waterloo). A full list of recipients was published in 1958 : STALINS, Jean-Louis. 0rdre imp?rial de la R?union. Only 135 Grand-crosses and 135 Commanders were also created during the short period 1812-1815 Second : French recipients were ordered to return their badges after 1817 by the Royalist Adminstration. A total of at least 250 of them submitted to this order between 1817 ane 1820. Non French recipients were mostly Dutchmen and Italians, with a few Germans (Grand Duchy of BERG). Congratulations. Veteran

Hello Eric, Hendrik's remark is understandable. Regulations for 2nd Empire types of Legion of Honor mention the obverse medallion as having "Napol?on Empereur des Fran?ais". In fact, the question is academic.... since there were no Commanders' badges during the 1st Empire. The rank was introduced in 1814 with the Restauration of Bourbon kings (Louis XVIII). It is therefore impossible that such medallions would have been manufactured before the Presidency of Louis-Napoleon Bonaparte 1850-52. This is necessarily 2nd Empire. I also checked the Commander's badge in my own collection. It is absolutely identical to yours, with the EMP. abreviation. It belonged to Colonel GUICHERT who was in command of the 3rd Cuirassiers. He died in 1865. It goes with his Sainte-H?l?ne medal. Both awards are framed together. To understand this, one must remember that these superb badges were made by independant jewelers, who could introduce variations in their production without too much official interference. I wonder if Commandeurs' badges with the full title EMPEREUR ever existed ? Very nice piece. They are quite scarce on the market, these days. I hope I have contributed to your understanding of the badges of the Order. Regards Veteran

The picture and descriptions (in French) can be found on the auction catalogue : palthey@phaleristic.com. N?87 & 88. Regards Veteran

Hello all A large auction sale was held in Paris May 30th. A significant selection of very good Ottoman period medals and orders (58 items in all) were sold, including an "officer's" European made gold badge of the "Order of the Crescent" with period ribbon (went for 12.950 Euro / ?9.500) and a miniature (8.630 Euro / ?6.070), sales taxes inclusive. A strange "ghost-order" with obviously powerful attraction... Regards Veteran

Boris, They would certainly have received those two commemorative medals ...... provided thay would wait until they were established i.e. 1921 & 1922 respectively. Thay would also expect the M?daille d'Orient special commemorative. Regards Veteran

Boris, There is a third possibility, which may offer an other explaination for an officer to be wearing LdH+MM+CdG. A member of the nobility would not have served in the ranks, nor would probably a man with a University degree in those days. The answer could be that these officers all received a Medaille Militaire during the period when they were officer-candidates (aspirants) who were treated as officers (or if they were a sufficient number as a category of their own); they would have the same command as a second-lieutenant ("peloton = troop" if mounted units, "section" otherwise). When they did very well they would not receive the LdH since they were not yet officers. Once they were commissionned, they would be eligible to the LdH for gallantry. Since "Capitaine Conan" was supposed to have happened at the end of the war, such officers may have been in sufficient numbers to explain the strange situation you mention. This situation was still the case when I served in WW2 and I served with an aspirant who had 4 citations to his croix de guerre and the M?daille militaire. He went on to earn the LdH in Indochina, where he was eventually killed in action. All the best Veteran

Hello Erik Thank you for those beautiful pictures. Hendrik is right : 3rd type Napoleon I. A very well preserved badge, since they were constantly worn. There was a variety of medallions, both obverse and reverse. THE reference book on the subject is : Mus?e national de la L?gion d'honneur de des ordres de chevalerie. L'INSIGNE DE L'HONNEUR de la L?gion ? l'?toile 1802-1815 Paris 2005 Pictures taken from badges included in the official collections of the Museum, show fourteen different obverse medallions, seven of which are laureate, and eleven different reverses. Both obverse and reverse medaillions on the badge you show are again different from those shown in the book, although I would be prepared to bet that they both are period. Congratulations for your fine collection. Veteran

Hello Boris Your remarke is appropriate. The trio Legion d'honneur + M?daille militaire + Croix de guerre was possible and occured a number of times during WW1; when worn by subaltern or field officers, it necessarily meant these men had been promoted through the ranks after gallant services as non-commissioned officers. The fact that you noticed ALL officers to have this particular combination of awards is strange. But, if I remember the book, it was about a man who had discovered war was his natural "milieu". The producers of the film may have wanted to convey the idea that all the men in the story were like Capitaine Conan, experienced warriors. I don't really know the answer, of course. Regards Veteran

This confirms my first impression. The Louis-Philippe is full size (during that reign they tended to be overly "full size"). The Restauration is a typical "half size", currently worn in "civvies". Nice period pieces. Regards Veteran

This one is distincly a Restauration chevalier badge. Restauration was the period when the Bourbon kings, brothers of Louis XVI who was guillotined by the Revolution, came back from exile when Napoleon abdicated in 1814; after a short return of Napoleon (March-June 1815) culminating with the battle of Waterloo. First Louis XVIII, then his brother Charles X reigned until 1830. It would be nice to have measurements (preferably millimeters) when such badges are shown. In those days, badges were worn at all times, and reduced size stars were available for wear on the civilian coat. The ribbon with a white border is sometimes found with Legion of honor, although it was more Saint-Louis. Again a nice item, showing the usual traces of wear. Regards Veteran

Hello Erik I fully support Hendrik's diagnosis (except for the dates, which are rather 1830-1848). Il is a gold officer's badge of the Louis-Philippe reign, also known as the July Mobarchy since it emerged from the Parisian revolt against Charles X in July 1830. From what can be seen of the ribbon, it would appear to be period, adding quite a bit to the badge's value. The missing enamel on the oakleaves is a current accident with the Legion of honor. A delightful piece. Congratulations Veteran

Hello Demir Thank you for this information. We are all now satisfied that this badge is NOT AN OFFICIAL OTTOMAN AWARD. Chances are that the badges found in France would be custom-made XIXth Century "fantasy" decorations, possibly made to order or available to French recipients of the Ottoman Order of the Crescent who wanted to have something to show for it. The Royal Almanach for 1828 lists all French holders of foreign awards and decorations. This book was the official reference of the "establishment". It mentions eleven holders of the Ottoman Order of the Crescent : General Comte de La Ville-sur-Illon Baron des Acres Baron Jassaud Marquis de Latour-Maubourg Sa Seigneurerie le G?n?ral Comte Guilleminot (This general is said to have worn a "Crescent" badge on a neck-ribbon).n)Baron Pr?vot Sa Seigneurerie le Comte de No? Marquis de Dreneu Chevalier de Gualy Colonel Regnaud de Villatte Monsieur Boidin A later issue of the Imperial Almanach in 1855 mentions seven survivors since 1828 : General Comte de La Ville-sur-Illon Monsieur Dr?vot (could be Pr?vot previously listed) Comte de No? Marquis de Dreneu Chevalier de Gualy Colonel Regnaud de Villatte Monsieur Boidin Obviously, this order was taken very seriously by the French. The holders would certainly have wanted something to show for it, even if they had not received a formal badge from the Turks. They probably had them made, since they were officially recognised by the King and the Emperor successively, over a very long period ..... As mentioned earlier, a portrait painting of General FOY is known to exist with the badge worn around his neck. I will be pleased to report the result of the auction when the smaller badge and the miniature will be put up for sale. It is fully understood by now that the badges were local productions. But they do have appeal to collectors of foreign awards to Frenchmen. The important thing is to undestand as clearly as possible what they truly are, and this debate has been and remains very enlightening. Thank you all. Best regards Veteran

Recent investigations seem to confirm that these badges were probably custom-made for the French recipients of the Order of the Crescent, during the 19th Century. They had nothing to do with official Turkish-made awards. A beautiful portrait painting of General FOY shows him wearing the very same neck-badge. This particular badge I showed was part of an exhibition at the Museum of the Legion of honor, some years ago. One smaller badge was sold at auction in Paris (and bought quite a steep price) in 1995. An other one, also smaller with an miniature, are to be auctioned on May 30th, which will be interesting to watch. I am very grateful for all the comments given. Further information will be gratefully received. Regards to all on this forum Veteran

Hello Mike Brilliant suggestion, thank you. I have called Palthey and received the catalogue by e-mail. What a coinidence that another piece of the same kind pops up at auction in only a few days !. It seems that the French like the idea that "improved" badges of the Crescent were made to order. Since a smaller piece is being sold, it will be interesting to see how much credit is given here to the idea and how much locals will be prepared to pay for it. A badge, similar to the one coming up sold for ?3.000 in 1995..... Come to think of it, I believe the badge I showed was part of an exhibition at the Legion of Honor Museum quite a few years ago. Recent Turkish litterature, according to Palthey, mentions the "european" made badges in a rather amused way. I am also very grateful to Ed for his learned comments. Best regards V'eteran

Ed, I tend to think you are right. Thank you very much. I just found a good paper on the order of the Crescent, with pictures of early badges. All are round, with the central Crescent, quite similar to the illustration in the PERROT. So the question is, what could this badge be ? Further information will be gratefully received. It is well made and finished. Veteran

Ed, I tend to think you are right. Thank you very much. I just found a good paper on the order of the Crescent, with pictures of early badges. All are round, with the central Crescent, quite similar to the illustration in the PERROT. So the question is, what could this badge be ? Further information will be gratefully received. It is well made and finished. Veteran

To be honest, I don't really know. I have a hunch that the "slouch" chechia only went with the parade uniform. The "tirailleur" type may have been more generally worn during WW1 with the ordinary uniform, to be changed to a helmet when up front. My answer is mostly guesswork. Sorry ! Veteran

Hello Ed Dave Danner's interesting post shows the Commemoratives medals issued in Turkey since the Revolution, but no orders. Which of course confirms the fact that the Country decided to go without. It also brings me to ask what makes you think this is a modern Turkish Order ? Admittedly, I am in true nead of reliable references. These would ideally be known specimens of the Order. Or good period pictures. The closest I have come to this is the illustration in PERROT, A.M. Collection historique des Ordres de chevalerie civils et militaires etc... Paris 1820 This picture was taken from that book. The illustration is quite different from the piece I show, but its accuracy could be approximate, as are a number of others in this very early book. The order I show has a rather "convincing" look. And it was not sold under any special pretence. Hopefully, further information will come forth. Best regards Veteran

Thank you, Ed, for this entirely new lead. I was under the impression that Turkish orders had been done away by Kemal Ataturk. I very much hope more information will become available. Best regards Veteran