Don, I would agree, the classic bevo weave is that loose thread patteren. If that was the case then the wallonie and france shields we all see would be considered suspect. I just think that there are different weave patterens for these shields and not to take the back as a face value when observing them. Material and known construction "keys" we know from the front are what is important. I had over 60 volunteer shields at one time and there were differences in the back weave. They were all good. I guess you can look at the two weaves displayed here as akin to bevo and bevo-like when we talk about cufftitles. Both are different but both are correct. Greg