Les

Rick, The "depot" system used at that time resulted in regimental officers and enlisted men entering service, usually through a regiment, and on release from service being mustered out or released through their home depot where they would exhange their Soldbuchs carried on active duty, for their peace time Militarpass. Entries made in a Soldbuch during active duty were entered into the Miitarpass, pay and financial accounting done, and the individual released. Officers that indivudually "transfered" to aviation units during the war, if they were still alive at war's end, were mustered out back at the same regimental depot they entered service. (I have photostatic copies of one flight officer's records that show his transfer from the infantry to aviation, and then being sent back to his home unit and mustered out there in the summer of 1919. This appears to be a typical bureaucratic proceedure.) Richtofen although a "flier" was still carried on the rolls of his home regiment; he transfered to aviation while a Leutnant, and while a flier, was promoted to a "Rittmeister", continued to wear the uniform of his parent unit, and had he lived to war's end, would have been mustered out as an Uhlan. If you check out the Ehrenranglisten, you'll see his namewhile serving with "another unit." Enlisted mounted units, during the later part of the war were often dismounted and used as infantry...but that usually took place on a company level. (Officers and men were treated differently.) In the case of the Regiment Garde du Corps (there is only -one- regiment in the Prussian Army with that title, and the "Garde du Corps" is not a larger formation) all of the various companies and squadrons returned home to Potsdam at war's end. During the Spartickust revolt in Berlin in the early days following the end of the war, the "Reds" took over the Imperial Palace, the G.d.C. stables and other parts of Berlin. The G.d.C. was involved in the fighting in Berlin, and operated as a large sized unit (at least several companies in size) until the revolt was quelled and some semblance of order was maintined in Berlin during 1919. Now...if anyone does have the book on GMVK recipients, could they check to see if there are any recipients for that award, that were members of the G.d.C. ? If they received the award while with another unit (likely to be the case) they'd have been returned to their home depot at war's end and mustered out there. It doesn't matter if there are two or more recipients, a short list of two or three candidates is better than having no list at all. Narrowing down the possibilities is far better than not trying at all. Les

Before there are requests to see the reverse of the bar, it's setting in a glass case -inside- another glass case. Getting a clear photo through two sheets of glass is "fun" if you've never tried it. Getting it out of both cases, and then back in would have been far more trouble than my friend was willing to get into today. Les

A buddy of mine has a mounted GMVK, and there's an unoffical "Garde du Corps" regimental medal attached to the bar. Does any one have the book listing recipients for the GMVK and is there any chance of getting a list of GdC enlisted men that were awarded the GMVK? The bar is "NFS" but I can always hope.... java script:emoticon('', 'smid_3') Les

Rick, I have a general approach to buying "groups". That is...groups can be "married" by unscrupulous collectors/dealers, or even merged by families of veterans who don't know or care what should or shouldn't go together. That being said, I never pay more than a rough estimate of the sum of the parts, rather than risk being given a story. There are times when the "good stuff" in a "group" is worth far more than some items that are "iffy" or suspect. Add the items up, if the math works out, that's a good thing. Stories aren't part of the math, and afterwards, documents and related items can be researched. The seller didn't offer any story at all. He limited the sales pitch to what was being sold and how much he was asking. Rick, I've bought boxes of things to get diaries, letters to/from, photographs and other items that the "hardware" collectors usually walk right by and don't give a second look at. I didn't particularly care about the badge in this group...I wanted the photos and some other items that were all part of the same offering. I'm not disgruntled. Les

John, Bingo. There are times when arguing the paternity of a child doesn't make the child any less real. The photo in this instance, is the 'child" and a real one. Disputing "paternity" doesn't make the child (photo) any less real, or a problem for those claiming that the type is not documented, and therefore not legit. Angles of photographs, different light, film quality/type, size of the objects (one a digital photo shrunken down to fit the posting needs of the forum, and the badge in the photo (about 12mms in size) enlarged to the point that it can be compared to the full sized badge. Photo comparisons problems aside, the real problem is that the period photograph presents good evidence for the existence of a type that some feel there is no documentation for. That doesn't make the "type" any less real. If it's not real, then find a "real" one. java script:emoticon('', 'smid_2') Les

Notice that one one, the top of the wings seem curved, then from another angle they look much flatter? Gee...wonder and that's the -same- badge, now starting to look different even though...as I said, it's the SAME one. Photo comparisons are tough, even under the best of circumstances. You can argue this badge isn't the same as in the signed photo, but that doesn't make the photograph evidence of one taken years before any of us was even breathing...a "fake." Les

Can you tell them apart? You shouldn't be able to, they're all the same badge taken within minutes of each other, but with slightly different angles. Les

Three photos, three angles, they all start looking -different-. If you want an exercise in frustration take several photos of the same medal over different days, overlap them and see if you get matching images...doesn't happen.

Rick, Does the photograph has a silver-nitrate "glow" to it? Yes it does have that period "silver" glow to it that I haven't seen on photographs made in the last 50 or more years. There's also an otpical characteristic about the photo that's a result of period lenses...which modern camera lenses don't convey. Also, there no thick emulsion on the surface of the photo typical of prints made during the last 50 or so odd years. Some of the other photos I've sent John also show the same fellow setting in the cockpit of a Bleriot type mono-plane, and in/around other period aircraft. If someone went to the time and trouble of trying to make a fake portrait, and "fake" aircraft, with period settings, all using the same guy and some of his friends...they spared no expense. The photo is authentic. Dispute it all you like, but it is real. The torso of the fellow in the photo is at an angle to the camera, and so is the badge. The photos I've taken are straight on shots. What you're "seeing" is the result of looking at the same thing from two slightly different angles. For that matter, anyone taking photos they've posted to this site, knows that often, taking a photo of the same badge on different days can result in the badge looking entirely different. That's a problem for anyone trying to compare photo to photo, let alone a badge to a photo. With the badge and photo in hand, I have an advantage that is tough to show in -a- side by side photo...I can try to adjust the angle of the badge in a rough alignment with the photo. In "person" they appear to match much more closely than you might be willing to concede. If anyone wants to see them at the SOS next week, I'm planning on being there and will bring the photo and badge. Austrian aviation uniforms: Austrian pilots wore balloons on the tunic collar. There are numerous photos showing this type of uniform, and the badges worn by -fliers- along with the flight qualification badge. Rivets? That chestnut is true of the "bent nail" badges that have been fobbed off for far too long. Anyone given enough practice can learn how to rivet something to a specific standard. Thast doesn't mean that everything rivetted is done well though. I've seen "family" badges that weren't all that well rivetted, and from my personal perspective, if that's the sole criteria people use for judging a badge, someone making fakes would have long ago paid more attention to the rivets if that was the "first" thing a potential buyer was going to look at. Les

John, Thanks for the comments and compliments. I like your idea of deleting the reverse image and allowing the rest to remain. That provides provenance of a sort for the items once I'm pushing up the daisies (taking a dirt nap, etc) and the items I've acquired run the risk of being split up and dispersed. If there's interest in this grouping, I'll post scans and photos of the paper and "hardware" items that are part of the larger group. Regards, Les

Prosper, thanks for this reminder. Many folks forget that the -document- was more important than the medal itself. In some cases, the bestowal of an royal order came with a knighthood, annual stiped, or other benefits and to claim any entitlement, the document had to be used to support that claim. Awards won while in uniform were supposed to be verified by an entry in the Soldbuch or Wehrpass, and the Urkunde kept safely at home. Les (another friend of Chuck W's, although not a Maine rock crawler....)

Reverse: normally I shoot against a light blue background with natural light. This was shot with artificial light at night, and a dark blue background used to reduce the contrast from shadows. The corrosion around the rivets is a chemical reaction that's a result of storing the badge against the same dark blue material. I suspect detergent in the cloth is present, and the corrosion is not due to solder/flux on the badge. Les

I'll edit out the previous comments once the feedback about keeping or deleting the images roll in. This image of the photo focusing on the badge, is about as detailed as I can get, using the posting parameters. Save it in case it gets yanked. Les

Ok...errands and having to deal with all those un-important issues that pay the bills, etc are taken care of, and once I get the pooch fed (and the obligatory walkies and "quality" time in) I'll post a good picture of the pilot, and then a close up of the badge in the photo. The reverse of the badge will also get posted at that time. I'll pose a question for you guys to mull over, and I'm open to suggestions on this. Posting the image of a badge which is controversial, and that many don't think exists...happens. But what posting will do, is if the image is left on-line for too long, it will provide details that someone who wants to pass off fakes of these can (and probably will do). Once I post the images, look them over, and -save- them, because if you think someone might use the photos to start passing off this type as real (without their own documentation), I'll delete them from the site (and archives) after you've had a chance to look at them, download them and save them for your own private and personal use. I don't know if mine is currently "one of a kind" but I'd hate to see copies using the details based on mine, used for a fake badge. Photos to come in about 2-3 hours (it's 1800hrs or 6PM EST) at this time. Les

Steve, I'm always interested in what people require as "proof." A signed period photo, clearly showing the same identical badge being worn, and other paperwork goes a long way towards being supportive evidence. In the sciences, there is an expression: absence of evidence, is not evidence for absence. That means you can't proove something -did not- exist. You can, if there's enough evidence, proove or stand a reasonable chance of demonstrating something does exist. At this point, I've given you a documented photo, signed by the person in the photo, wearing the flight badge, and I'm getting what sounds like...."I won't pass comment......as I have ever seen documentation." Let me know what else you require as proof or further documentation, since the problem of dispelling that the item I've shown you is not what the photographic and related evidence suggests, is now the "opposition court." Les

Here's a close-up of the badge, and part of the photo showing the same badge. Les

"badges with the banner below the crown are pure fantasy"...... Let me make sure I understand which badge is being discussed. Is this the one with the double ribbons hanging below the single crown? I have one in my collection that's identified to the pilot in the photo (seen wearing the same exact badge), that came along with numerous photos and paperwork (including two tunics). Les

Rick, The Karl badges in the photos John posted all have double crowns. The FJI badges on the other hand, do not, and I have photo examples documenting the single crown FJI examples being worn during the war. No argument on the other points, although I'm usually critical of anything with an inscription if all I have to go on is a photo. Les

Well...when Rick speaks on certain subjects (especially on the subject on flight badges) I defer to his opinion. Do what he says. Do what he says! Les

John, The cased example marked "3100" looks absolutely super. The engraving on the reverse looks more like German Suetterlien influenced script that the Austrian "latinische". The Austrians never used Suetterlien or Fraktur, that hints this piece may have been owned by a German. The other badge looks every bit as good as the first one. The -lettering- on the "3101" looks like it might be from the Austrian "school" but the slanted view makes reading the name and whatever else is there, tough. Now, whether the inscriptions are real or not, that's something I can't say based on looking at photos, and without checking whether the names match either German or Austrian records. Any chance on getting the full inscriptions on both, and then doing some quick research? Chances are the pilots were "no bodies" but both of those badges are both -something-. Thanks for posting those. That'll give me something to look at while this storm coming through the east coast of the US is burying many of us under the white stuff over the next several hours. Too bad the guy wants to sell them as one (?) lot... A novice thinking all are good, but the two cased ones are worth a great deal might bid the lot up higher than the low end dreggs averaged in with the good stuff is going to be worth. Les

John, the first two don't "cut the mustard" as far as my two cents goes. The wings made as part of the wreath aren't the way the Austrians normally made these. Also, the claps system of the one on the left in the first group of pictures looks....squirrely and not the typical pin back or hook system normally seen on Austrian badges. The details don't appear to be all that crisp, and the badge on the right almost looks as if it was made frome a cheap pot metal (cast?). Usually well-rivetted backs is one of the things to look for on an Austrian badge, but that's really a matter of skill that can be acquired. The second set of badges? The aircrewman's badge (the one with the white enamel for those who don't know Austrian badges that well) -looks- good, but if this is from a dealers table, the presence of those first two would send me running. The other badge also looks good from the obverse side, but I'd like to see a better shot of the enamel, and hope the eagle has more detail than the photo shows. The rivets on the back aren't all that well done, which means I can't give you a thumbs up or down with any real certainty on this one...although I'm inclined to say pass on it if it was offered to you. Austrian badges are 'dangerous" to collect and the quality of the fakes in the last 10 years has gotten really good. The enamel looks good on most, but some of the older pieces have some superlative work that I haven't seen matched in the new stuff (yet). If you're thinking of buying, get an otpion to return within a reasonable period of time provided it's the two in the second photo. Pass on the first two. Regards, Les

...and there's that paternity suit. Even relative unkowns and not always the rich and famous can be shown to be a missing relative. Spotting the bundle left at the orphanage steps and demonstrating who the father was a few years after the event was easier than some (the defendant in the suit for example) thought possible. Les

Rick, If this document is yours, Detlev sold a PlM on his site today, that is 900 silver marked, described as a post war piece, resembles a Godet type piece, and that it came with the award document. The item was in a glass case that hung on the wall "for the last 50 years" and was acquired by a Berlin dentist who the story goes, got it from the family who used it to pay their bill (it doesn't say it was lenz's family, and the bills were with him?). If the PlM and Urkunde sold by Detlev were his....part of a set that should be together got sold today. If you'd been "there' with USD$ 9000 and a -fast- internet connection with an even faster finger on the "trigger" you might have been able to rejoing parts of a set that belonged to Lenz. java script:emoticon('', 'smid_21') java script:emoticon('', 'smid_28') Les

Brian, Check out Andreas' site at: http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:7Fquo...us&ct=clnk&cd=1 <quote> In Germany, according to the Imperial law of 16 July 1884, published in 1886, it was up to the firm to guarantee silver content and quality. The Imperial Crown within a circle, representing the sun, was used on gold at or above the correct standard of 585/1000 parts gold. The Imperial Crown, without a circle, with a Crescent or Sickle Moon to the left was used on silver of the correct standard. This standard was to be at least 800 per 1000 parts silver. When quality did not meet these standards, it was illegal to use these Imperial silver marks. These silver stamps were typically not used on smaller awards or delicate jewelry, which was allowed under the order, but silver content marks of 800 or 935 are often found. An example would be the Iron Cross Second Class, which offers little room for such marks. <end quote> He mentions the phrase "at least" which seems to imply that if an item is marked as having silver in it, that the content must be "at least" that amount. It's quite possible that silver could mixed with another metal so that it's content could be "810" instead of "800". The absence of a wide range of stamps for every grade between 800 and 100 silver strongly suggests that the the mark is used as a "minimum" amount. I recall Dietrich on WAF discussing the fact that it can be difficult to get a -PRECISE- measurement of the exact amount of silver in an item. If the amount varies by a percentile here or there, a law that stipulated a mark had to be precise would create problems for assayers, silver-sheet rolling firms supplying jewelers, etc, and the jewelers who the 1884 law cited in Andreas's site, would be required to guarrentee. A law spewcifying the precise silver content be marked, would mean a plethora of weird silver stamp contents, but we don't see that. The lack of those odd stamps suggests...a stamp meant the amount was a minimal amount and the actual content could be higher. Andreas also mentions there are/were badges/medals made that contained silver, but had no silver content stamps on them. That would seem to imply the items were not sold as silver. I can't find the regulatory statutes at this time, but perhaps an email to either Dietrich or Andreas might be of help? I'll keep looking though... Les

He's possibly confused that unsplit wicker looks too much like a cane...and caning is only done to people who misbehave. "ain't misbehavin....." (whistling a little Cole Porter) Les