Les

Rick....I never expected a PLM recipient, or someone who held a high ranking position in the post war military bureaucracy! Wow....this goes to show me I'd better start paying more attention to ribbon bars. I "owe" you one, or two.... javascript:emoticon('') smilie My buddy doesn't collect Imperial German items, and this was part of a miscellaneous bunch of items in a box of unrelated items he bought (to get a set of wings). There's no way to determine where it came from at this time. Pflugradt received his PlM for defensive operations againt French and US forces in the first half of September 1918 (St Mihiel salient ?). If he fell off your radar after 1928, there's a chance his military records might have survived. If nothing else, his position as Chief Adjutant to a government minister should have left a postwar paper trail that can might be traced. Perhaps the Bundesarchiv might have something on him. He may have died before WWII if his name doesn't appear in the TR army lists. Rick, again thanks for putting a name to the ribbon bar, and doing the hard part. Now tracking down some of the other details of his life are up to me! What you did find out, was impressive! Vielen Dankbar! Les

The reverse side...with a weird brown/olive colored backing. The backing material doesn't look like any material I've seen before so it's possible the bar might be fake, or...the backing might have been replaced at one time. I'm not certain if this one is good or someone has dinked with it. Les

A friend of mine gave this bar to me. It's worn, faded, doesn't have the 1934 Honor Cross on it, and best of all, it was free. The front:

Paul, As a formalty you might want to contact the Bundesarchiv, the Bavarian Military Museum, and related successor agencies of the Imperial and Weimar govenments that printed the documents. It's not likely that copyright laws still pertain to them, although it's worth noting that not long ago the US Congress voted to extent copyright protection from an initial 25 years, with a second renewal for another 25 years (and after that items went into public domain), to a whopping 75 years. Disney was concerned about protecting their rights to various cartoon characters (specifically Mickey Mouse) and extensively lobbied (read paid off) members of Congress to change the law to protect their interests. I'm not sure what the exact official status of the German publications are, but an enquiriy to the "Germans" might be a wise move before selling the "intelllectual rights" of another nation whose laws and attitudes of scanned documents being sold for what they might consider personal profit might keep you in their good graces if you ever wanted co-operation from their archival staffs. It would be the polite thing to do, that way if you ever found out they were working on a similar project, no feathers would be ruffled. Chances are they might say "thank you, good for you" but better safe than treading on toes you might not know are there. Les

Rick, I'll sing Amen from the choir, to the Bishop on this comment. Marshall, there are several other PlM's still in "the family." If memory serves me correctly, perhaps one of the most famous of recipients is/was Erwin Rommel, and that item although in a safe place, is his son's, and will go to his family in turn. There are a few others, but if Manfred Rommel decided to mico-engrave his father's name on that PlM.... try to imagine what would ensue once word got out. Let's consider that engraving has been around long before PlM's or many other medal designs were even sketched on a piece of paper. Brian's grandfather if -he- wanted to, could have found an engraver and personally arranged to have his name added. He obviously chose not to, and as Rick succintly puts the matter, if it wasn't done by the original owner/recipient, and can't be undone, the piece has been changed forever. Brian might be toying with the idea. Imagine for a moment, he does in reverance of his grandfather's memory. However, Brian's son or grandson or even a later family member might have very different thoughts on a family member who decided to add something extra to the pieces... Posterity has the option of judging what -we- do, it's quite possible that an act one ancestor did for another might be viewed by later generations as an outrage. All of ous would like to hold onto what our ancestors gave us. However on a very tangental note, there is something all of us do carry with us our entire lives...our DNA, which was given to us by them and some of their inherited DNA resides within us on a "micro-level." That doesn't mean I'd suggest getting an ancestors' name tatooed on my backside, or being worried about a family member giving away DNA to some lady he happens to meet.....

Stolen art and stolen artefacts have a long history of people who don't care where an item comes from, only that they have it. Some of them don't care if it has to be hidden away somewhere they can't show anyone else. If you want examples of items that were stolen, seen in public places, and the owners or people claiming ownership to the goodies can't do much about...there is the example of items swept up by the Nazis, and in some cases "liberated" by the Allies who allowed many items to pass into private or public ownership. Many governments, and American states take the point of view that current ownership is 9/10ths of the law, and particularly if someone paid honest money for an item they bought in good faith is entitled to keep what they have. If the item is seized, and the owner isn't compensated, you have what amounts to official theft and the buyer who bought the item (unawares?) is left up the proverbial creek. In addition, some American states have an "arm's length" transaction law, that allows anyone who purchased an item from someone who believed the item to be honestly owned, to keep the item even if it has been susbsequently prooven to have been stolen. The thief might be found and prosecuted, but if the item(s) have changed hands several times through "legitimate sales", they may not be recoverable at all, and it's possible the orignial owner they were stolen from is left with nothing at all. The items with names or numbers are potentially able to be recovered, but if sold through an underground market and change hands several times through "honest sales", the legality of ownership is clouded at the very least. Gentleman, unless the thief is caught with all of the items, the owner stands to be out quite a bit, even if all of the items are eventually tracked down and located. Imagine if you'd paid through the nose for a breast star of the SAO 20 years after a reported theft, and then find out you had something that was stolen, but is legally yours. Would you retun it without expecting anything in return, or keep it knowing it was stolen, and think of selling it to someone else to get a stolen item out of your collection. Would you tell them it's history, or be quiet about what you knew? Those...are a few things to consider. Les

I run with the group on this one. There is one way I've heard to deter theft, and keep things together if you want to do something that is completely non-visual, and will serve as a real life "curse". Irradiation with Strontium 90, or any of the really heavy duty radioactive beta emitters. On the "bright side" pun intended, they'll glow in the dark and that will help cut down on electric bills. Also, you can bet that most people will want to keep the items in a special custom made lead lined case and all of the items as a group. If you keep the dosage and absorption rate the same so that all the items are equally radioactive, they can be geiger counter checked to seperate from other like pieces even if the documents or associations are broken up.. Now...that was meant as humor guys... Les

Hyperinflation... I forgot to mention what the cause of this was all about. An official in the Treasury department had the bright idea, that even though all of the gold in the Treasury had to be handed over to the Allies as part of the Treaty of Versaille's terms, that having any "real" backing to the currency wasn't absolutely necessary for commerce. The government continued to print money, and there was nothing backing it. There wasn't even the good faith of the government behind it. The people who tried to redeem debts and claim owed debts started realizing the money was worthless. The government at the same time was printing even more money, playing a hide the pea in the shells game. The treasury at first thought it could pay off debts simply by printing more money and handing out paper notes. When people started realizing what was happening, the cycle started speeding up, not stopping or even slowing down. The hyperinflationary period started in 1921, and by the end of 1922 had hit it's highwater mark, and emrgency reforms and the "Rentenmark" currency began appearing, marking the German government and international attempts to normalize the German economy. Les

During the war, money for the war effort was raised by selling bonds, government loans, and related methods. When the war ended, and the old government went out, the means of paying back investors and people who made loans to the government was bankrupted. (The government in effect pinned it's hopes of paying people back after winning the war, and placing indemnities, reparations/restitution on the French, British, Italians, and of course the Russians.) The Versailles Treaty added major insult(s) and even more disastrous injuries to an already bad situation. Germany lost up to 10% of it's population by border alterations, lost of the Saar coal mines for 15 years, a requirement that the German merchant fleet be surrendered to the Allies to compensate for lost shipping during the war, etc. In short, this and other factors literally killed the German economy. The inflationary period set in, and until circa 1922/23, the economy was in a downward spiral. Circa 1923, a series of economic reforms were instituted, and the Allies realized that unless some of the Treaty terms were not enforced rigerously as written in 1919, that there would be a complete collapse, possibly a revollution along the lines of what happened in Russia, and -no one- would get any more money out of Germany. The Allies eased the terms a bit, and for a while things slowly started getting better. In the very late 1920's, there was a minor bank collapse in Austria, that had a ripple effect across Germany. Banks at the time were often inter-related, loaned to each other without support or means to pay loans back. One bank collapse, led to another, and another. German banks began collapsing much like dominoes, and at almost the same time, the Wall Street Crash (October 1929) added another economic tidal wave to the German situation. People had their life's savings wiped out when the war was lost in 1919, and the bonds, loans, and other promises couldn't be repaid. Ten years later, what small measure of recovery had taken place, was wiped out again. To say there was a measure of political unrest would be putting it mildly. There's much more to the situation obviously, but the economy had a major importance in what followed. Hitler got into office by promises of "bread and jobs". He was able to stay in office by invoking "Article 48" of the German constitution which granted him in effect dictatorial powers and an end run around other consitutional requirements. Technically, the Weimar Republic didn't end with Hitler's rise to the Chancellorship, or even the government moving to Berlin. There is no absolute clear dividing line, and it could be argued that the Weimar Republic ended when the Russians ran up a red banner in Berlin during one May day in 1945, and the German decided to call it quits a few days later. Les Les

I'm inclined to agree with Rick on almost every point he made. By the way, what's all this stuff about "the" evil twin? There's a rumor going around that both are evil, and one is "eviler".... javascript:emoticon('') smilie Collecting and dealers are often engaged in a symbitotic (or is one of them parasitic?) relationship with each other. Market factors such as -perceived- demand and -perceived- value can drive prices up, not to mention competition between collectors who are out to show other collectors the "gem(s)" in their collection. The escalation in prices of Imperial items over the 20 plus years has been driven by many things, but there is a large element of "investing" and an expected profit when items in collections (or sales inventory) is eventually offered for sale. When real estate, and other traditional investment areas gets overpriced, there are always people looking to find new areas. Sales catalgoues from various auction houses (Chrities, Southbies, and so on) don't go unoticed by brokers and investors who are looking for new areas in which to make money. Twenty years ago, German field grey tunics were selling for a couple of hundred dollars in good to fine shape. Now...they are selling for several thousand. I recall a silver-gilt PlM I was offered in 1984 for the princely sum of $750, and the price these days would fetch enough to buy a new car. Let's face it, demand results in increased sales, which dealers notice, and price rises. Collectors notice price rises, and a "get it while it's hot" syndrome can create a feedback cycle. I'll end with a situation I see often when I go trout fishing. Trout can be incredibly lazy at times, and will lie in the bottom of a stream not caring to eat. If they are alone, and some mayfly floating past doesn't look particularly eidble or appetizing, even if the trout -is- hungry they might let it go. Even if the bug bumps into the trouts mouth, it might not be interested. If there's another trout in the stream and they know each other is there...the situation changes radically. Both trout will go after that same scruffy watersodden bug even if both are stuffed to the gills, -because- they don't want the other trout to have it. Collectors can be the same way at times. I think many of us are trout like at times... Les

Rick? Hmmm...is the operative word enamel, or does it have to be limited to medals? One item above looks suspicioulsy like a Garde wappen from a Helm... If that's ok, what about a Bavarian shako plate with enamelled center device? This was worn by the former head of the Bavarian Luftfahrtruppen. Close-ups of the enamel can be provided. Les

Okay...expanding the horizons and not being duplicating what others have already posted, here's an item not usually seen. Les

...and the reverse side with details of how the turgha is fastened to the bade, the hinge and clasp details. The construction details suggests one or two possible makers, but so far, until a marked one turns up, this one goes into the unidentified column. Les

Rick, Here's the close-up of the obverse. I'll upload the reverse in a follow-up post. I'm trying to work with the 60k limit on uploaded images which can handicap hi-resolution images. Les

...and da' back side of the moon... The photos are on the small side, however I can if anyone wants show closeups with better details of the one on the right. Les

Gentlemen, for your viewing pleasure, three of mine. The one on the left is a Godet made item (GODET-BERLIN stamped on the pin with an Austrian import mark partially obscuring the word Berlin), one of the commonplace "BB" made ones, and the one on the right is top notch quality but nary a mark or indication of who made it. I've shown it to at least one Turkish medal specialist (on "another forum") and he said he never saw another like it. I bought all of these within the last five years or so, and prices....not much more than a decent EKI at the time I bought the Godet or unmarked one. The high prices on these seem to be relatively recent, and pushed at least one of the "dealer gods" whose names must not be uttered while it's dark outside. Stogie used his initials on the paralell thread...

This is tangental to the thread here, but raises the matter of what happened to German or Austrian Jewish WWI "war heroes" during the TR era. Your grandfather's family information/background probably wasn't known to the Gestapo or the more zealous TR types that followed the official Numerburg edicts that defined who was or wasn't "Jewish." That solitary grandparent, if it were public information or surfaced during a family member attempting to join the "Party" would have resulted in your granfather being delcared "Jewish" regardless of whatever religion he did (or didn't) practise. "War hero" status to the contrary, he might well have joined an Austrian Feldmarschall (Johann Georg Franz Hugo Friedl?nder) at Theresienstadt as a "guest of the government" and where he might have spent his last days. "Hero status" among those considered Jews, and political opponents gave some a slight edge, but not much of one to Rommel, despite his being a war hero in two wars. My apologies if the post seems to veer of-topic, of what orders enobled. Les

The maternal side of the last Bavarian royals, theWittelsbach family is descended from Mary, former Queen of Scots. Kronprinz Rupprecht of Bavaria in 1914-1918 was an Army Group commander holding the line against another well-known Scot...Douglas Haig. Ruprrecht was one of the better German commanders and one of five recipients of the 1914 GKdEK. Maybe Flanders in 1917 wouldn't have been so bloddy if there weren't two "Scottish" commanders facing each other? Does it take a Scot to beat a Scot ? javascript:emoticon('') smilie (There's a little humor in there somewhere.) During the TR era, the Wittlesbachs were still in Germany, and although I can't put provide names without doing a little "Adelsforschung" of the family, there were probably more than a few that served in the Wehrmacht. Regards, Les (new to this Forum, and a first post; welcomes -not- necessary)