art wall

Okay- How about giving Mike $20K for his goblet then?

That is a higher estimate than what others have suggested, but I can see your point. The city and date have been ground off, revealing the remnants of "Manchester". There are a few dings as well, thus my estimate of $15K. Had the inscription not been buffed off, I would estimate the value at $20-25K, with a documented goblet at $25k-30K. I think we are pretty close with valuation estimates. Having seen this goblet in hand, I really think that $15K is a good estimate. If one was going to see this at an auction house, I very much doubt it would bring $20K. If so, however, with paying the 20% commission, one ends up with $16K. I do, however, respect your opinion. I have paid about $10K for ehrenbechers and $15K for one PLM attributed ehrenbecher, which I used as well as a reference in evaluating the value of a rare, yet altered, goblet. I used the fact as well that a "blank" or filed off name on an ehrenpokal will fetch a price about half or a little less, than an engraved ehrenpokal. Taking the estimates of an undamaged goblet, and the fact that this goblet is rare, that is how I came up with that number. I think that the "Manchester" is interesting, as there has not been another Thor goblet with this city. Maybe the date is wrong, as the best digit I could see was the "2" as the first digit. The "17" for 1917 was far less apparent. It would probably take some special analysis at an imaging lab at a university to clearly find the date. The "MA" and "TER" for manchester were readily apparent with magnification.

That is what the city and date appears to show. It is very worn, as an attempt to grind it completely off was made. To determine this precisely, one would need futher analysis, such as what is done for "filed off" serial numbers on guns. This requires a ferrous material, however.

I took photos, but the faint impressions of the letters and digits may not show up well. Certainly they were "washed out" on the initial photos that Mike sent us. The part that shows up the best is the "M, A, T, E, and R" from "Manchester" and the "20" and "17" from the 1917.

Mike had sent me the goblet to analyze (thanks!) and it was pretty interesting. Using magnification, I was able to determine that "Manchester" and the date "20.10.1917" was engraved into the "blank" plate, yet had been removed by abrasion at some point in the past. Therefore, the goblet was not blank at all, yet shows another "raid" which has not previously been shown on Thor Ehrenbechers.

After further consideration, Mike decided to keep the goblet. It was nice to see the images and I am glad that he allowed them to be posted for examination.

PS- I do not claim to be an "expert" or authority on ehrenbechers by any means. I just posted some of my observations and beliefs and hoped that others would post as well. It has been stated that Wagner and possibly Godet are the makers of the ehrenbecher. Is there any firm evidence of this? Also, the eagle stamp is the old city stamp for Heilbronn. Is there any association or evidence to suggest that the goblets were made there, or is this just coincidence?

NONE. It is like asking how many Mona Lisa paintings I have examined. I am afraid that there are just not that many out there to have a great deal of experience for anyone. That is why I think it is interesting to discuss such a piece. I have had, and do have, several ehrenbechers. With a knowledge of the ehrenbecher, we can make some inferences about the Thor goblets and learn from an object "in hand". These Thor goblets apparently were made by some of the same silver shops that made the ehrenbechers. For instance, the Thor goblet in question here appears to bear the hallmarks of Brueckmann & Soehne, who made some of the known ehrenbechers. We can make SOME CONCLUSIONS by comparing with ehrenbechers of known firms. It is interesting that the other goblet posted on this thread came from a different silver shop. This, of course, is the case with ehrenbechers as well. There has been the suggestion that Wagner designed both the ehrenbecher and the Thor goblet. Did they they "farm out" the design to many different silver shops for production? it is obvious, through the catalog of german silver stamps, that there were several shops that made the ehrenbechers. If they were made by wagner, why no "W" hallmark stamp anywhere?

So it appears as though the discussion is completed on this goblet, for which there are only 8-9 other examples known to exist. I guess that is it. No comments or concerns, despite the fact that the silver hallmarks point to a different manufacturer than the other two images posted on the net? I personally like this goblet. However, I am a litte surprised that very few had any comments about the goblet itself. No one knows about these; with a knowledge of ehrenbechers, we should be able to evaluate and draw some conclusions on a very similar award.

Better put that on "scour" cycle, as I still have a little sense of nausea and think it may just take some time.

Ouch! That image of a 63 year old guy in a bikini is now going to be stuck in my mind. I think I will need a little therapy to get that removed from my brain. I am sure I will be okay in a few years.

Chris- That is the point. NO ONE knows the true "value" of this item, as they just never come around. I was not suggesting, by any means, that my offer "defines a market" (that would be abject arrogance). What ever gave you that impression? That was certainly not my intent. I am not Mike (who is selling the goblet). I collect many items, but am particularly interested in the PLM. Therefore this is not some weird "plug" by the seller. The seller was KIND ENOUGH to allow us to post images of his goblet. I am just thrilled to have a chance to take a look at one. Aren't you? We can all learn about this piece a little more when someone posts pictures and allows examination of the item. I find that fun. I was able to track down the matching silver stamps (which was entertaining) to a specific company. I am simply saying that $15K is what I AM OFFERING. Why? Because I think it is worth that much TO ME. That is what the price of nearly all military items comes down to. I put up this offer IN PUBLIC such that anyone thinking about low balling Mike (as with the $10K value he was quoted by an auction house) would be unable to do so. If someone thought it was worth more TO THEM, they would have the opportunity to offer the man that amount. I told Mike I thought that was what it was worth BEFORE HE SAID HE WAS SELLING IT and asked that he contact me if he ever decided to sell it. If one thinks that is the value when it is not for sale, then that should be the value when IT IS FOR SALE. If Mike accepts my offer, I would be thrilled. If he does not, I would offer that anyone else agreeing to buy the piece would come across this link and have that number as a minimum price for sale. I think you misinterpreted my offer as in that - a. KNOWING the value of this item - NO ONE DOES. I DON'T KNOW. I "guessed" based upon ehrenbecher values b. assuming that my offer is a "market value" If, per chance, another Thor goblet came up for sale, I am sure that someone will come across our discussions in making an esitmate of price they would ask for the piece. That is just good sense. Such a piece would probably be engraved with the city and date, so it would be worth more. Would I buy it? Yes, I probably would. How much would I offer? Probably between $20-25K; if it had the certificate, probably $25-30K. But that is just me. Maybe the guy on this site who owns the "London" goblet would see that number and think, "Holy crap, I am going to sell!" Or he think, "Holy crap, my goblet is worth more than that!" To review, given that there are other sales of ehrenbechers, I would say that 1. a regular old ehrenbercher is about $10K 2. an ehrenbecher to a PLM recipient is about $15K 3. An 835 silver ehrenpokal to an RK recipient is about $9K There was an interesting "privately made" ehrenbecher with an eagle base, given to a PLM recipient by members of his squadron, which sold at one of the German auction houses two months ago for $5K, as I recall. It was a pretty cool piece, yet is "one of a kind" (unlike the Thor goblet- since there are other "awards", I think the Thor goblet would be worth quite a bit more). Did anyone know the value? No- the starting bid was 1800 euros. Would anyone like to get back to discussing this very interesting and rare goblet? That is why I am here, not to argue prices with people. The price is a SIDE ISSUE for a man (a retired military guy who has a grandkid going to college) who like to get the best price for his piece.

I don't think so either. It is a good problem to have a solid offer on the table. If Mike decides to hold on to the goblet and look for a better price (no hard feelings), I think that provides a minimum price point to have in mind. The auction houses would be another option I had not considered for Mike, but there you have to pay a 20% commission, which puts a damper on things. I do think it is surprising that no one else has offered an opinion on valuation, however. Anyone else? Don, if you are readily able and willing to plunk down $17K for items you want (I know you are not interested in this), exactly what items are you interested in and purchase for this price or more? You must have some wonderful pieces in your collection!

You are welcome for the "sermon", Don. Do appreciate, however, that my sermon was short and did not require any kneeling, so it was pretty painless. $17K? Well, there you have it, Mike. Perhaps you should hold out for someone offering $17K then. My opinion is that it is worth $15K, therefore that is all that I would (and am) offering. Again, I think that everyone would agree that the pricing on these (since they essentially NEVER come up for sale) is tough. I determined my "guess" based on other "guesses", as the only market value we know about is for regular ehrenbechers. The value of the "Thor" goblet would probably have a wide range of price estimates. I think that EVERYONE would agree that the $10K quote Mike was given was too low. I put up Mike's photos and disclosed that I made him an offer of $15K such that people could agree or disagree with it and Mike could make up his own mind about valuation based on these discussions. That way Mike does not end up getting the shaft for a nice and rare item.

You are welcome, Mike. Of course, someone may offer more with the photos and all posted. It is kind of one of those items that people have on thier "Holy Grail" wish list. If not, I will be glad to buy it.