Geoff Reeves

Some beautiful groups so far! Here are a few in my possession... The first is to 6405860 Cpl. L.W. Finch of the East Surrey Regiment (39-45 Star, Burma Star, Defence Medal, War Medal, GSM 1918-62 with clasp "Palestine 1945-48"). His service number indicates his initial enlistment was with the Royal Sussex Regiment. Now this does not mean that he served with them during the war - he could have gone on to serve with any unit of the Army - your initial service number always went with you - but assuming he did, he was probably with the 9th Battalion of the Royal Sussex's - as they are the only the battalion of this regiment to be entitled to the Burma Star (that I've been able to find and I'll happily stand here and be corrected!) After the war it would seem that Finch liked Army life and did a short-term engagement with the East Surrey Regiment, probably the 2nd Battalion as they were posted to Haifa from '45-'47. All medals are unnamed as issued save the General Service Medal 1918-1962 which is properly impressed 6405860 CPL. L.W. FINCH. SURREYS.

Rick: you are correct in assuming that he could wear both orders at the same time as neither was a promotion within the order (one military one civil). I don't know if the same still holds true, but it certainly did then and I've seen examples of groups with both an OBE and MBE from different divisions.

Very interesting grouping there John. I'm wondering if the RA stuff is from a friend or relative? I say that because his service number, 6016452, indicates that his first enlistment was with the Essex Regiment. The Essex were allocated service numbers 5998001-6076000, while the Glosters had 5172001-5239000. Now, this number only indicates who he first enlisted with - it was very common to switch regiments or even Corps after basic training and you always kept your initial service number. RA numbers are much lower, though, on second thought it is quite possible he joined the Essex then transferred to the RA then to the Glosters. Great find! And for Rick - the inverted chevron on the left arm is a Good Conduct stripe - the others are qualification badges of some sort, but I'm no expert on those so hopefully someone else can i.d. the rest.

I wonder if the Fred Winward from the 1881 census appears in the 1901 census - and where he would be - might be an avenue to pursue. A bit more - I've been checking to see if he might have qualified for the Africa General Service Medal, but the only clasp issued between 1918 and the 2nd World war was for Somaliland 1920 (or '22 don't have it in front of me) and the SL battalion were not present. Doesn't mean he didn't get it - he could have been on attachement with another battalion of the WAFF - but doubtful at this point. I had someone check the RWAFF history for mentions and Winward does not appear in the index...BUT...the authors (Heywood and Clarke) published a list of subscribers who donated to help them with the project. F.G. Winward was one of those who donated - this book was published by Gale and Polden in 1964 so we know he was still alive around that time. There was a history of the SL battalion published seperately, but I haven't found anyone who has it...but am making further enquiries as I'm sure he appears in that one. We'll see what comes up...to be continued...(I hope!)

There may be more to come re: medal entitlements so please stay tuned to this space...

Some more to add... Found his MBE - it's in the Military Division gazetted in LG issue 34010, 29 December 1933 - The New Year's Honours List to Winward, Lieutenant (Local Captain) Frederick George, Regular Army Reserve of Officers; Quartermaster, Sierra Leone Battalion, The Royal West African Frontier Force. So, this means he was a military division MBE and a civil division CBE. I will check my sources and get back to you but there was a time when you could wear both levels of the order concurrently, provided they were not in the same division (ie not a promotion within the order). So, he may well have been F.G. Winward, CBE, MBE and worn both ribbons on his uniform. Wait and see for this one. Next: Winward is mentioned on many occasions in the London Times between 1 January 1934 (his MBE) until as late as 1953 (but we'll get to that). Unfortunately no obituary in the Times - and I looked as late as 1985 (the online resource doesn't go any later). However, with the rest! The next mention is in the issue of 21 July 1934 when Winward is mentioned as a member of the shooting team competing for Sierra Leone at Bisley (which, I might add was won by Canada that year - but I digress). Sierra Leone was competing for the Junior trophy which was won by the Falkland Islands. S.L. came second and Winward was 4th overall in the junior competition...so the old Ordnance Armourer could shoot! After this he's mentioned again on 19 April 1937 as one of the 5 officers (all Captains) from the Royal West African Frontier Force who will travel to Britain to attend the Coronation (does that mean he was entitled to the Coronation medal? Not necessarily - my Grandfather marched as the RSM of his battalion in that parade and did not receive it...but Winward might of...) His next three mentions in The Times come in fairly quick succession: 8 May 1937 has him attending a reception given by "His Majesty's government...last evening at Lancaster House, St James's, in honour of Colonial Empire visitors. The Secretary of State for the Colonies and Lady Beatrice Ormsby-Gore received the guests. The band of the Welsh Guards played during the evening..." What's most interesting about this is that his entry in the guest list is as "Captain and Mrs. F.G. Winward". No mention of his wife's name, however, and least we know she existed. Nine days later Winward and his wife come up again as having been guests on May 15th at a garden party hosted by the Duke and Duchess of Sutherland at Sutton Place, Guildford. This again for overseas visitors from the Colonies to the Coronation. London must have been party-central during the coronation as the Winwards (Captain and Mrs) are mentioned attending their third reception, this one hosted by Lloyd's for Colonial guests on the 26th of May/37. Winward's name appears again in the Times, 10 years later, in the New Year's Honours list for his civil CBE - but it's basically just copied straight from the Gazette so you've got that already. Finally, we find out that Winward is a Freemason - and a seemingly high ranking one at that (I know very little about Freemasonry, so I'm just guessing here...this article from The Times of 3 December 1953.

I would say that would be his correct birthday - AND - that fits nicely with the Frederick G Winward born on Malta that same year. As for his uniform, even though he spent very little time in the UK during his life...my experience has been that no matter where you were you were always British - and so as a good British Officer he would have had his tailor's send his uniforms from the UK...not totally unheard of.

Retired as per London Gazette published 19 October 1948, issue 38438: "War Subs. Capt. (QR-MR) F.G. Winward having attained the age limit of liability to recall, relinquishes his commission, 20th Feb. 1948, and is granted the hon. rank of Lt. Col."

Rick: you're probably sick of me spamming your thread - but I promise you'll like this one. I had no luck finding Winward's MBE announcement BUT I did find something else. From the London Gazette published 31 December 1946, issue 37835. So, not just an MBE - but promoted within the Order to CBE! That is, promoted within the Order if his MBE was civil - which we still don't know. It WAS possible to be John Smith, CBE, MBE if one was civil and one was military (and to wear both grades of the Order with the different ribbons).

Have been searching the online London Gazettes and can only find information you already have (still looking for MBE announcement which would tell us if civil or military), but I did find his middle name was George...

This could be something interesting, Rick - or nothing at all. I decided to type "Frederick G. Winward" into Google to see what happened. Here's what it spat out: http://website.lineone.net/~remosliema/bap23.htm This is an index of Baptisms by Army Chaplains on Malta and if you scroll down half the page you'll see a few Winwards, including one Frederick G. born in 1893 into the Royal Artillery. Could it be?...

Glad to be of service! When I get home tonight I will post an example of a typical MIC. All it will tell us, essentially, is what WW1 campaign medals he is entitled to - and what units he served with - but we already know that from the index that you can see in the link. SOMETIMES there is additional information such as Theatre of War first entered, whether KIA (not this case obviously), and whether taken POW (probably not in his case). However, if you can't download the PDF you could engage a researcher to seek out his MIC at the National Archives at Kew. Unfortunately, because Winward served post-1922, I don't believe his service file will be accessible to the general public - however, because he was WAFF - this might not be the rule. It might be worth asking a researcher in the UK who is more familiar with those files.

One more note: the "A" prefix in his service number denotes him being in the Armourer's Section of the AOC. These men were usually Sergeants or above (as is this case) and usually served on attachement to an infantry battalion (in this case the Sierra Leone Battalion of the WAFF).

Rick: you may have this already as this is an old thread, but just in case... Winward did, indeed, have WW1 service - whether he saw action or not I can't tell, but I found his Medal Index Card on the UK's National Archives website. It lists him as A1241 Staff-Sjt Army Ordnance Corps and A1241 Staff-Sjt West Africa Field Force. It also lists his first name as Frederick. Here is the link: the pdf of the card can be downloaded for GBP3.50. Frederick G. Winward Hope this helps a bit... Geoff

Some others I've heard over the years: REME: Ruin Everything Mechanical and Electrical GGFG (Governor General's Foot Guards, an Ottawa-based Canadian Regiment): Good God Forgot the Gustav. This nickname arises from an incident 10 or so years ago when the regiment was returning from exercise. One of the trucks broke down and needed to be towed so it was unloaded at the side of the road and all the kit was reloaded into another truck. All the kit, that is, except for an 84mm Carl Gustav anti-tank weapon. When the returned later it was gone and is missing to this day. 48th Highlanders of Canada: The four-dozen highlanders QOR (Queen's Own Rifles of Canada): Queer's on Retreat (not very PC, I know) There's more I know (or knew) but can't think of any off the top of my head right now...

I believe the exception to that rule is the SAS...

Another British one to add: The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regt) - now amalgamated (several times over) into the Princess of Wales' Royal Regt. - were known as Kirke's Lambs. The Paschal Lamb was their symbol and Percy Kirke was their first Colonel. The origins of the Paschal Lamb are a bit unclear, although it was thought to be associated with Queen Catharine of Braganza for whom the regiment formed a bodyguard in the 17th C.

Rick: thanks for the comments - I knew they were uncommon but wasn't prepared to call them rare. But I do not have NEAR the experience that you do, and as you say, you haven't seen that many. Maybe the gold variety were never produced? I'll keep my eyes peeled until someone tells me otherwise. By the way, LOVE those real silver pieces, very very attractive woundbadges - thanks for posting them.

Hi David: that's very interesting, I had not heard that. I had only heard that they were late-war economy issues, but post-war economy would make sense too - in fact given the economy of the Weimar Republic that might make more sense. It would be nice if someone had some documentary evidence to back either theory up. Thanks again for the response! Geoff

And the reverse...

I thought I'd revive this thread and add the two that I have in my collection. My understanding is that the DRGM catch was a late war economy measure as it used less material. You don't see them all that often and I've been looking, for a couple of years now, to find one in gold to complete the set...any one seen any?

Hi Gordon, sorry for the delay in replying. I read your thread on those men you researched - well done, indeed - some fascinating stories (which is why I collect medals...for the research possibilities and the stories behind them). As for Martin - had he survived, or died, say, several days later from his wounds, I think he would have likely been awarded a bar to his MC. However, as he was killed in the action the only options availabe to him were the VC or a Mention in Despatches - those being the only 2 awards, at the time, that could be awarded posthumously. In your research did you check to see if he was MiD? It would not have surprised me if he was. all the best, Geoff

Hi, I've only just joined the forum, and realize that I'm coming late to this conversation, but this answer might prove useful to someone. Both the immediate and non-immediate awards of gallantry medals were gazetted in the LG. The difference between the two, however is that the immediate award was for a specific action and the non-immediate award was for performance above and beyond the call of duty over time. As an example, let's take the DSO. Lt. Col. Bloggins, the battalion commander, takes his troops over the top during the Somme campaign. While leading his troops towards their objective, Bloggins, by way of frontal assault, takes out a machine gun nest holding up the advance - he accounts for many of the enemy single-handedly and saves many of his own men's lives. The powers that be decide that this isn't quite VC material but grant him an immediate award of the DSO for gallant conduct. Lt. Col Muggins commands a different battalion of the same regiment. Over the course of 3 months his battalion is the most successful in the line - it consistantly achieves objectives, harrasses the enemy, brings in prisoners and it's all due to the outstanding leadership shown by Muggins. The powers that be want to reward their very able battalion commander and so award him a non-immediate DSO. Hope this helps! Regards, Geoff