demir

Thanks for this, Demir!

Hello Ed,

Thanks.

Demir ERMAN

Hello,

I didn't like your sardonic way of calling Mustafa Kemal Atat?rk who fought the war of Independence against all the western powers (for you: England,France,Italy,Greece, later date USA etc) and won and founded the secular Republic of Turkey.

You only mention Balkan war; what about the others in Benghazi, Irak ,Palestine, especially GALLIPOLI, In?n? wars, Independence war.

Actually I did not wanted to reply your quest in the beginning and thougt that it wouldn't worth to reply for a person with this attitude. But your knowledge of history is so poor that it may lead to some unwanted opinions. I suggest you read a history book about his achievements as a commander and as a statesmen. At least you can goggle or use wikipedia.

But this gave me a good opportunity to supply the club members with the pictures and list of his medals and orders. (2 lists and 3 pictures will follow)

Demir ERMAN

LISTS:

MUSTAFA KEMAL ATAT?RK'S MEDALS

• DISTINGUISHED COMBAT MEDAL SILVER)- (G?M?Ş İMTİYAZ MADALYASI - (top right in the picture) :

Awarded to him by the Sultan Resad V on 30 April 1915 for his outstanding successes

as the Commander of the 19th. Division during Canakkale (Gallipoli) battle.

• DISTINGUISHED COMBAT MEDAL (GOLD)- (ALTIN İMTİYAZ MADALYASI) - (top left in the picture) :

Awarded to him by the Sultan Resad V on 23 September1917 for his outstanding successes as the Commander of the 19th. Division during Canakkale (Gallipoli) battle.

• MERITORIOUS SERVICE MEDAL SILVER)-(G?M?Ş LİYAKAT MADALYASI) (left bottom in the picture) :

Awarded to him by the Sultan Resad V on 1 September 1915 for his outstanding

Successes during Canakkale (Gallipoli) battle.

• MERITORIOUS SERVICE MEDAL (GOLD) - (ALTIN LİYAKAT MADALYASI) - (right bottom in the picture) :

Awarded to him by the Sultan Resad V on 17 January 1916 for his outstanding

Successes during as Anafartalar Group Commander during the Canakkale battle.

• WAR MEDAL (HARP MADALYASI) : (2nd picture with the Orders)

Awarded by Sultan Mehmet VI on 11 May 1918 for his outstanding successes during the Dardanalles Campaign (Canakkale/Gallipoli)

• MEDAL of INDEPENDENCE (İSTİKLAL MADALYASI)?(in the middle of the picture) :

Given by the Parliament on 21 November 1923 for his oustanding achievement during the War of Independence and winning the war against British, French, Italians and Greeks and declaring independence a founding the secular Republic of TURKEY.

Hello,

I didn't like your sardonic way of calling Mustafa Kemal Atat?rk who fought the war of Independence against all the western powers (for you: England,France,Italy,Greece, later date USA etc) and won and founded the secular Republic of Turkey.

You only mention Balkan war; what about the others in Benghazi, Irak ,Palestine, especially GALLIPOLI, In?n? wars, Independence war.

Actually I did not wanted to reply your quest in the beginning and thougt that it wouldn't worth to reply for a person with this attitude. But your knowledge of history is so poor that it may lead to some unwanted opinions. I suggest you read a history book about his achievements as a commander and as a statesmen. At least you can goggle or use wikipedia.

But this gave me a good opportunity to supply the club members with the pictures and list of his medals and orders. (2 lists and 3 pictures will follow)

Demir ERMAN

LISTS:

MUSTAFA KEMAL ATAT?RK'S MEDALS

• DISTINGUISHED COMBAT MEDAL SILVER)- (G?M?Ş İMTİYAZ MADALYASI - (top right in the picture) :

Awarded to him by the Sultan Resad V on 30 April 1915 for his outstanding successes

as the Commander of the 19th. Division during Canakkale (Gallipoli) battle.

• DISTINGUISHED COMBAT MEDAL (GOLD)- (ALTIN İMTİYAZ MADALYASI) - (top left in the picture) :

Awarded to him by the Sultan Resad V on 23 September1917 for his outstanding successes as the Commander of the 19th. Division during Canakkale (Gallipoli) battle.

• MERITORIOUS SERVICE MEDAL SILVER)-(G?M?Ş LİYAKAT MADALYASI) (left bottom in the picture) :

Awarded to him by the Sultan Resad V on 1 September 1915 for his outstanding

Successes during Canakkale (Gallipoli) battle.

• MERITORIOUS SERVICE MEDAL (GOLD) - (ALTIN LİYAKAT MADALYASI) - (right bottom in the picture) :

Awarded to him by the Sultan Resad V on 17 January 1916 for his outstanding

Successes during as Anafartalar Group Commander during the Canakkale battle.

• WAR MEDAL (HARP MADALYASI) : (2nd picture with the Orders)

Awarded by Sultan Mehmet VI on 11 May 1918 for his outstanding successes during the Dardanalles Campaign (Canakkale/Gallipoli)

• MEDAL of INDEPENDENCE (İSTİKLAL MADALYASI)?(in the middle of the picture) :

Given by the Parliament on 21 November 1923 for his oustanding achievement during the War of Independence and winning the war against British, French, Italians and Greeks and declaring independence a founding the secular Republic of TURKEY.

Hello,

I didn't like your sardonic way of calling Mustafa Kemal Ataturk who fought the war of Independence against all the western powers (for you: England,France,Italy,Greece, later date USA etc) and won and founded the secular Republic of Turkey.

You only mention Balkan war; what about the others in Benghazi, Irak ,Palestine, especially GALLIPOLI, Inonu wars, Independence war.

Actually I did not wanted to reply your quest in the beginning and thougt that it wouldn't worth to reply for a person with this attitude. But your knowledge of history is so poor that it may lead to some unwanted opinions. I suggest you read a history book about his achievements as a commander and as a statesman. At least you can goggle or use wikipedia.

But this gave me a good opportunity to supply the club members with the pictures and list of his medals and orders. (2 lists and 3 pictures will follow)

Demir ERMAN

LISTS:

MUSTAFA KEMAL ATATURK'S MEDALS

• DISTINGUISHED COMBAT MEDAL SILVER)- (GUMUŞ İMTİYAZ MADALYASI - (top right in the picture) :

Awarded to him by the Sultan Resad V on 30 April 1915 for his outstanding successes

as the Commander of the 19th. Division during Canakkale (Gallipoli) battle.

• DISTINGUISHED COMBAT MEDAL (GOLD)- (ALTIN IMTIYAZ MADALYASI) - (top left in the picture) :

Awarded to him by the Sultan Resad V on 23 September1917 for his outstanding successes as the Commander of the 19th. Division during Canakkale (Gallipoli) battle.

• MERITORIOUS SERVICE MEDAL SILVER)-(GUMUŞ LİYAKAT MADALYASI) (left bottom in the picture) :

Awarded to him by the Sultan Resad V on 1 September 1915 for his outstanding

Successes during Canakkale (Gallipoli) battle.

• MERITORIOUS SERVICE MEDAL (GOLD) - (ALTIN LİYAKAT MADALYASI) - (right bottom in the picture) :

Awarded to him by the Sultan Resad V on 17 January 1916 for his outstanding

Successes during as Anafartalar Group Commander during the Canakkale battle.

• WAR MEDAL (HARP MADALYASI) : (2nd picture with the Orders)

Awarded by Sultan Mehmet VI on 11 May 1918 for his outstanding successes during the Dardanalles Campaign (Canakkale/Gallipoli)

• MEDAL of INDEPENDENCE (İSTİKLAL MADALYASI), (in the middle of the picture) :

Given by the Parliament on 21 November 1923 for his oustanding achievement during the War of Independence and winning the war against British, French, Italians and Greeks and declaring independence a founding the secular Republic of TURKEY.



MUSTAFA KEMAL ATATURK'S AWARDS

This is a comprehensive list of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's awards, (1881 - 10 November 1938), who was an army officer, revolutionary statesman, and founder of the Republic of Turkey as well as its first President. (ATATURK'UN NISAN ve MADALYALARI - 1986 Ankara and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk%27s_awards)




Orders, decorations and medals

25.12.1906
Mecidi Order 5 th class

6.11.1912

Osmani Order 4th class

1.2.1915

Osmani Order 3rd class

30.4.1915

Silver Imtiyaz Medal

1.9.1915

Silver Liyakat Medal

17.1.1916

Gold Liyakat Medal

1.2.1916

Osmani Order 2nd class

12.12.1916

Mecidi Order 2nd class

23.9.1917

Gold Imtiyaz Madalyası

16.12.1917

Mecidi Order with Crossed Sabers 1st class

11.5.1918

War Medal (Harp Madalyasi)

21.11.1923

War of Independence Medal (Istiklal Madalyasi)

FOREIGN AWARDS

11.3.1914
Legion d'honneur
France

For his successes as lieutenant colonel, while he was working for the Operational Section of the Mediterrenean Joint Forces Staff



23.3.1915
Order of Saint Alexander (3rd Class/Commander)
King Ferdinand of Bulgaria
Achievements during the Battle of Gallipoli



1915&1917
Iron Cross - German Empire

EK II 28.12.1915
EKI 9.9.1917
Achievements during the Battle of Gallipoli


1916&1917 - Austria/Hungary
Military Merit Cross
3rd class 27.7.1916

Military Merit Medal 2nd Class with War Decoration 9.9.1917

World War One achievements

16.12.1917
Order of the Crown of Prussia, 1st class
William II, German Emperor King of Prussia
World War One achievements


27.3.1923
Aliyul-ala Order - Kingdom of Afghanistan
Amanullah Shah, King of Afghanistan


21.11.1923
Murassa Order
Turkish Aeronautical Association
Establishment of TAA
Platin

12.11.1931

Silberne Verdienstkreus "in treu" am blau-veissen banden awarded by Schwarzb Kriegerkamaradaschaft

Colombia did not participate in WWI. The country was officially neutral until 1943, when it joined the Allies. It did not contribute any combat forces to the cause.

To expand its international influence, the Colombians sent an infantry battalion and a frigate to Korea. As already mentioned, the Colombians acquitted themselves very well in Korea, seeing hard combat at Old Baldy, in particular. The Spanish-language UN Korea Medal was primarily for issue to the Colombians.

Hello,

I have all the UN Korean War medals in different languages except Columbia (Spanish). I would like to see one if you have a picture.

Thanks

demir erman :jumping:

Hi,

This person who lives in Belgium and has a connection in Turkey and in Australia.

He has been selling fake Mecidies since 2006 under different names.

Maybe it is better for us to inform the buyers.

Best wishes

Demir

Hello,

Another fake seller in ebay is "dursen51" from Germany.

Demir

Dear Demir, your analysis makes a lot of sense, because as I understand the "Gallipoli" star is a lower order than the Silver Liyakat (Merit) Medal. And it makes no sense that this particular medal would be more elaborate than its higher up brother! So I tend to see the enamelled versions as a private option. Besides I have several versions of the painted ones and some are very poor quality, while other are actually quite good metal quality, as well as finish, and that includes the pin arrangement at the back. Regards JJ

Hi,

You are right TWM is a lower medal. Article 7 of the above mentioned Regulation about the TWM dated 14.4.1333 (1914) indicates that;

Article 7: One who hasn't earned a BRONZE War Medal would not be not awarded the kind of gold and/or silver Liyakat (merit) and Imtiyaz (loyalty to the State and bravery) medals which were supposed to be received in a war. (In short one has to receive the War Medal in order to receive imtiyaz and liyakat silver and gold medal)

As is seen originally the War Medal was supposed to be BRONZE. But in a later dated Regulation (21.11.1333) changing the original one the word BRONZE was deleted.

Best wsihes

Demir ERMAN

There is so much "rubbish information" out there regarding this award, spread mostly by those who insist on seeing it as somehow a "German" award, made up by post-War German trinket-makers, rather that as a legitimate Ottoman award. Can this "studied ignorance" even be undone?? With the help of good friends in Turkey, maybe . . . maybe . . . ??

Hi,

You are right.

For me the ones with red paint on them are the official/legitimate Ottoman/Turkish War Medals,with a Ottoman Governments Regulation (attached picture from Mr. Er?reten's book) how to receive it, whom to give it, how to wear, where to wear it, etc. dated February 1333 (1914). There is no article in it that indicates where the medals can be produced. Which means that they will be produced at the Ottoman Mint in İstanbul.

We know that the painted ones were made in The Ottoman Mint in Istanbul by the order of the Ottoman Government which made them official, but we don't have any knowledge about the other companies, did they also produce the medals by the order of the Ottoman Government?

But, if you like to collect BB&Co, German and Austrian made ones also, like me, it is OK, but still they are not official/legitimate Ottoman/Turkish Medals.

Best wishes

Demir ERMAN

Hi Demir, I do have a copy of this book, as well as the Dunya Savasi'nda Turk Askeri Kiyafetleri 1914-1918, by Tunca Orses, Necmettin Ozcelik, 2007, Istanbul. Both have been very helpful in reviewing the 1909 to 1918 (1923) period. As well, I have been relating back to the Modern Turkish defence forces because the ranks do not apear to have changed. And this has been useful in identifying the mistakes made in the English histories for Turkish uniforms. It apears that the English sorces such as - Turkish Army Handbook seem to have wrongly assumed that Turkish military organisation and ranks followed English or German lines which was not correct. Best regards JJ

Thank you

Demir

Hi Demir ERMAN,

"1. Everybody is wondering about BB&Co, including myself, but since there is a big amount of BB&Co TWM, I think it must be a local company in Istanbul. It must have been operating during the Gallipoli war and closed afterwards because of the economic difficulties of the Independence War.

2. For Gallipoli there is only one official medal; TWM (Gallipoli Star) and it is the painted one. I don't think as some of my colleques are claiming that these painted ones have been given to the enlisted men and the emaille ones to the officers. No, everybody received the same and only official issue. The medal is shown below."

Sorry, but I have my problems with this statement.

I had the chance, to archive a great amount of absolute original decorations and documents of several German generals from a family.

It is not only this:

http://www.turkishmedals.net/decorations.htm

No, my opinion is based on the pieces in the family treasure.

Unfortunately there is no document, but I think it is the original decoration (marked BB&Co) with the original "case", a cardboard:

Regards

Uwe

Hello again,

As far as I know, the red cardboard case/envelope is for the red painted TWMedals.

Here is a picture I copied some time ago (can't remember the site ) which also shows the same case with the painted TWM, the picture of the owner and the ribbon.

Best wishes

Demir ERMAN

Could one of our Turkish members translate this please? (book by Metin Erureten)

Hello,

Here is the translation:

"TWM (Turkish War Medal) was planned originally to be made of bronze, and shape was oval but hasn?t been produced. Instead a star shaped, red enameled medal made of bafon (50% Cu, 25 % Ni, 25 % Zn) was produced.

The TWM, made of several pieces, is actually an Order but, in the TWM Regulation the word ?medal? was used. For this reason it find its place among the medals listing.

Several sizes have been seen; 57 mm, 68 mm, 75 mm and 80 mm. Some of the medals which are made of bafon have been produced by the Ottoman Mint (the painted ones) and the others (emaille ones) have been produced abroad (Berlin). There are silver ones also.

The medal has been awarded to the soldiers and officers of the Ottoman Empire and her allies which fought in Gallipoli, Galicia, Caucasus, Irak, Egypt and other fronts. It also was given to those who served behind the fronts.

Osmanlı Madalyaları ve Nişanları (Ottoman Medals and Orders) by Metin Er?reten 2001 Istanbul "

Demir ERMAN

I have been revising the WW1 Turkish Rank Structure, and have identified a mistake with the english references, namely the Extract from HANDBOOK OF THE TURKISH ARMY, 1916 - Battery Press - ISBN# 0898392497. 8th Provisional edition, originally prepared in Cairo by T.E.Lawrence, and Philip Graves, which people in English speaking countries would be relying on has several errors in this version. Mainly, a Colonel has three stars, a Lt. COL. Two stars, and a Major ? one star. The Turkish military, as it still does currently, has an intermediary rank between Captain and Major called a Commandant, who at the time could have either wore a CAPT. Shoulder board with three stars, or a Major's shoulder board with no stars. See Osmanli askeri teskilat ve kiyafetleri (1876-1908).

This is the table used in the HANDBOOK OF THE TURKISH ARMY, 1916. And bellow this is is revised rank table with the commandant included:

Hello,

Do you have a booklet named " Ottoman Military Organization and Uniforms 1876-1908" (Osmanli Askeri Teskilat ve Kiyafetleri 1876-1908) published in 1986 by the Military Museum in Istanbul.

Best wishes

Demir ERMAN

Hi Chris,

1. Everybody is wondering about BB&Co, including myself, but since there is a big amount of BB&Co TWM, I think it must be a local company in Istanbul. It must have been operating during the Gallipoli war and closed afterwards because of the economic difficulties of the Independence War.

2. For Gallipoli there is only one official medal; TWM (Gallipoli Star) and it is the painted one. I don't think as some of my colleques are claiming that these painted ones have been given to the enlisted men and the emaille ones to the officers. No, everybody received the saame aand only official issue. The medal is shown below.

Best wishes

Demir ERMAN

And reverse:

Great to see two Turkish collectors on here....

Maybe they could clear up....

1) Who was BBc and co?

2) What crosses did the Turkish soldiers get?

Thnaks

Chris

Hi Chris,

1. Everybody is wondering about BB&Co, including myself, but since there is a big amount of BB&Co TWM, I think it must be a local company in Istanbul. It must have been operating during the Gallipoli war and closed afterwards because of the economic difficulties of the Independence War.

2. For Gallipoli there is only one official medal; TWM (Gallipoli Star) and it is the painted one. I don't think as some of my colleques are claiming that these painted ones have been given to the enlisted men and the emaille ones to the officers. No, everybody received the saame aand only official issue. The medal is shown below.

Best wishes

Demir ERMAN

Dear Avsar,

Yes there is a star and here is the picture, it must be Austrian made. The box is made by a jeweller recently. It is always nice to get your opinion. Best wishes. Demir ERMAN

And here is the medal and the miniature

Demir ERMAN :cheers:

Demir Bey Merhaba ,

Josef den aldiginiz degilde , yukarida o ilk post ettiginiz yildizin arkasindaki ignesinin uzerinde

yildiz seklinde bir damga varmi acaba ?

Cok saygilar ve selamlar ,

Avsar Ibar

In English ; Hello Mr.Demir

Is there a star mark on the first Star which you posted the pictures on the up ?

I do not mean the Godet one which you get from Josef.

Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Dear Avsar,

Yes there is a star and here is the picture, it must be Austrian made. The box is made by a jeweller recently. It is always nice to get your opinion. Best wishes. Demir ERMAN

Congratulations. it is a real nice one. I will send it the following days. sorry for the delay but i caught a cold.

PS: Did you buy something at Gorny&Mosch? unfortunately i misssed the real gold Imtiyaz with sabers

regards

josef

Unfortunately no, I also missed it.

Best wishes

demir

This is reverse

And GODET

Best wishes

demir :beer:

Hello,

I think he was mentioning the previous one I had. This is the new one I bought from Haynau.

Best wishes

demir

This is reverse

Could you please tell me what does look any different from yours to Haynau's/Demir's? That was a text book Godet made Ottoman war medal, wasn't it? I cannot see anything wrong with it.

Hello,

I think he was mentioning the previous one I had. This is the new one I bought from Haynau.

Best wishes

demir :rolleyes:

Hello Haynau,

Yes that's it. You have some nice items yourself as far as I follow you in ebay.

Best wishes

demir

Hello Haynau,

I bougt a Turkish War Medal from you two days ago from ebay.

Eiserner Halbmond GODET Silber Orden T?rkei !!! (270285293863)

Lovely piece.

Thanks

Demir

Lovely example. Enjoy it.

Best wishes

Demir

Hi,

This person who lives in Belgium and has a connection in Turkey and in Australia.

He has been selling fake Mecidies since 2006 under different names.

Maybe it is better for us to inform the buyers.

Best wishes

Demir

Avsar,

Lovely medals,

Thanks for sharing the pictures.

Demir

Hi Veteran,

Is it possible to see the pictures.

Thanks