Richard V

Side view.

The hat. The only part of her uniform that I managed to salvage.

Another portrait

A group shot.

Here is a studio photo of her. This is the same as the one in the frame but has been restored. The one in the frame is the original. Richard V

Here is a photo of my grandmother's awards/badges with a photo that I have mounted in a shadow box frame. Sadly it would take an act of congress to get at the badge as the reverse of the frame is sealed shut. Sorry for the quality of the photo as it was shot through the glass. You can see the badge in question in the lower right hand side. I have no photos of her wearing the badge. It is a rather large enameled badge. The round badge worn at the neck seems to have been much more frequently worn with the uniform as the other photos I will add will show. As these are heavily enameled they were easily damaged in day to day wear. My grandmothers round badge shows a distinct bit of missing enamel and crack that can also be seen in the photos when I look at them under magnification. Also note the uniform. Thick wool tunic. My grandmother had a rather large bosom and it is pretty well obscured in this tunic like in the first picture posted in this thread. I think the powers that be were trying to ensure that temptation was as far removed from the front lines as it could possibly be. Richard V

I know exactly what the badge is. It is an enameled badge with the Austro-Hungarian eacle with a shield and red cross on its chest. I have this badge from my Grandmother who was an Austro-Hungarian nurse in WW1. I will try to make some pictures this weekend. I can also affirm that the uniforms of the nurses were less than flattering to the figure. Probably as stated to prevent any "lust" from the troops. I have some shots of my grandmother wearing an identical tunic and heavy plain skirt. The hat is also identical and I was fortunate enough that she had saved it all these years and passed it down to me. I'll see if I can't get some scans and pictures to add to this thread. Richard V

Troy, Armbinde is German for armband. Richard V

I just meant to imply that they were produced in large numbers but appear never to have been issued or awarded. I know of no instance in which the badges that are not cut out appear on any photographs of a wearer either pre or post 1945. This could be due to the fact they were never issued. Based on the lack of photos, it would not help to define the time during which they were produced. I think we are saying the same thing here. Those that are definitely, without a doubt post 1945 are those that have been reworked. These have the MM. When I referred to those that are post 1945, it is these reworked badges to which I am referring, not to the DRL without swastikas that are from an original and not reworked die. Despite the propensity to view the Germans as perfectionist in their creations, there are numerous examples where perfection did not exist such as the IAB's marked Fank and Reif and the Schrobenhansen Westwall medal packets. However, I am not saying they were made incorrectly, I am saying that for what ever reason, they were assembled prior to having the letters cut out and, as such, are the only ones of the series that have this phenomenon. It is quite likely that they were rushed into production to fill a void and it was decided that this "final touch" was unnecessary. I would love to hear a good explanation of why imperfection is not normal for Germans but suddenly the normal pattern of a badge (cut out letters) is not followed for one particular series. As everything was in short supply after war's end, surely someone would not think to create a new set of dies for an award when there would be plenty of dies to be reworked during this period. My point here is why would anyone create new dies when reworked dies could be used and apparently were? Until a period photo is found with a badge that is not cut out in wear, I don't think the timeline of where these badges fit can be proven only theorized. Does anyone have any paperwork showing how late DRL badges were presented after the war? Richard V

Hi Uwe, here are the answers to the questions you posed in your post. Yes you are correct, sorry for the mistake. I meant to say the DRL without swaz was quickly instituted to replace the DRA. For some reason I cannot edit my post, probably having something to do with my level of membership. This would have been during the transition period between the Weimar Republic and the Third Reich. The DRL without swaz is the only one of the main three designs (DRA, DRL w/o swaz, DRL w/swaz) that is found with the letters not cut out. When I say unfinished, this is to which I am referring. Some are cut out, others are not. The ones that are cut out went through the entire finishing process, those that are not cut out, failed to receive this final step. I don't know why they would have received a pin before being cut out as the cut out process surely must take place before the addition of the needle. But it is the fact that these badges exist without cut out letters, that make these an anomaly. Perhaps the manufacturers thought that even though swastikas were to be added to the design, they might be able to get rid of the inventory they created and quickly assembled all stock in the hopes that even those without the final finishing of being cut out would be able to be used. I also find it odd that none exist with a manufacturer's mark. It is almost as if a large run of prototypes was made and not accepted. Of those that are post 1945, most do have a MM and usually are seen to be a reworked die from the DRL with swaz. To add to the design of the DRL without swaz. Most DRL without swaz examples are seen not to have been reworked DRL with swaz examples. There is no tip, the three loops binding the bow can be seen to be a part of the original die and there is only one large bow. The DRL without swaz but with the tip, is a clearly reworked design of the DRL w/swaz. It was intended to fill the gap at war's end and would conform to the new regulations that a swastika was not supposed to appear on awards. If the DRL without swas dies were a post war design, there would have been no need to rework the old DRL w/swaz dies. I am willing to bet that all post 1945 photos of the DRL without a swaz will show that the "tip" is present, or more than one ribbon loop is present or that the letters are cut out. I have yet to see a post 1945 photo of a DRL without swaz, or any DRL for that matter, that has the letters that are not cut out. The reason that no photos of a DRL without swaz exist pre 1945, is because they were never awarded. Production was ceased and no awards were made before the DRL with swaz was the required standard. This discussion is very interesting to me as I have long had an interest in these badges. Though no concrete proof exists that the DRL w/o swaz was produced prior to 1945, no concrete proof exists that it was not made prior to 1945. Catalogs showing a DRL without swastika post 1945 would not be proof that they never existed prior to 1945, just proof that they existed post 1945. There would have been no catalog picture and no photo of these in wear if these never reached official award status. The Coelocanth was thought to be an extinct fish until one was brought up in a fisherman's net in 1936. No picture or sighting existed from prehistoric times to 1936 but, obviously, it existed during that time. Until we find paperwork (as I think no photos of these in wear will ever be found since I believe they were never awarded), or regulations or some other period document that can provide a clear definition of the date of production of these badges, I think these will always remain a contested area. Richard V

This has been an amazing discussion with lots of information. I have my "2 cents" to add with a slightly different take. There is no post war evidence of wear of the DRL without the swaz just as there are no pre war photos either. The only DRL without the swaz that has a maker mark appears to have been produced from a reworked die and appears to be an anomaly among the no swaz DRLs out there as the vast majority have no maker mark. These without maker mark appear also not to have been manufactured from a reworked die. Another fact of the DRL without swaz is that a large number do not have the letters cut out and are essentially unfinished. Based on these observations I had always assumed that the DRL without the swaz was quickly instituted to replace the DRL. A number were manufactured. Some were finished out, most were not due to the fact that the powers that be decided to add a swastika to the design. So the DRL without the swastika was scrapped in mid production. A failed design that never made it past production stage to the awarding stage accounting for the large number of unfinished badges out there and the fact that none have ever been seen in any period photographs either before or after the war. For Rick R. You mentioned that the silver DRL without swaz seems to be the most common. I have found that to be the opposite in my searches, with the bronze and even gold easier to find than the silver. Richard V

This really is one of the most beautiful orders created. I have searched for a nice one for years and finally managed to obtain one in a medal bar. These are wonderful pictures. Thanks for sharing. Richard V

Many thanks for all the information. Interesting about the iron version of the Merit Cross. The entire grouping was given to me by his daughter who is a good friend of my mother's (hence the fact Josef's wife was my Godmother). This included the iron cross but it now raise suspicion as it is the only award for which there is not a corresponding award document. I suppose this could be why but I find it curious that it would have been included with all his other awards. Makes me wonder from where it came? Rick, do you have any link to the War Archive in Vienna? I'm not having a lot of luck with Google on this. Would I need to provide the name, rank, unit, etc. from each document or would they be able to locate his records with the information from one of them? Again, many thanks for the information so far. Richard V

Thanks for the input. I suppose it would be difficult to determine either way. I've just not seen very many combinations like this. Richard V

Thanks for the technical advice. I think I need to become somwhat more computer literate. Don, I found the tinnie that looks a lot like the Sachsen. It is one for Stuttgart. Here it is pictured next to its Sachsen cousin. Richard V

Interesting observation. Where did you hear this and do you know the name of the Austrian poet? I had never heard of this before. Richard V

It seems odd with the swords if the first word is actually Christlich. Perhaps they were REAL competative! Richard V

Not that this will make much difference but I misspelled the first name. It is Matthias Millonig. Here is a copy of the document. Thought I'd post it anyway. Richard V

Rick, the guy's name was Mathias Millonig. I had a friend check Patzwall's Blood Order book and Millonig is listed in the application list XIV of Oct 21, 1939. His listing indicates he was from the town of Klein St. Paul in Kaernten. It'll be interesting to see if any additional information can be found. I'd be particularly interested in seeing if his BO number can be ascertained. It would probably be like looking for a needle in a haystack to try to reunite the two, but I'd like to give it a try. Be nice to see what he did to receive the award too. Richard V I'll try to scan it this Friday when I have a day off work and take a closer look at the document when I get home tonight.

The slider is unusual for a German badge. I just can't recall seeing an Austrian Turnerbund badge to see if they used the same symbol as the Germans. I"m just guessing too but basing my guess on the front of the badge and the symbol itself. Do you have any idea if this symbol was somewhat universal in central Europe or possibly used by at least the Austrians as well as the Germans? Richard V

Anyone know at which number the 1st pattern ended and the second pattern began? I have a second pattern document and have not been able to find any information around the name of the recipient. I assume the award he received was probably way beyond the 1500's. Richard V

Rick, did the Austrians use the same symbol for their Turnerbund as the Germans? This symbol definitely was used by Germany and I think it may be more like C. (perhaps Christlicher?) Deutscher Turnerbund Oestringen (or Oeringen, both in Baden-W?rtemberg. Or for that matter any other city or region that might start the O with umlaut. Richard V

Here are the promotion documents. This group is one of the reasons I want to learn how best to do research on signatures, units, awards of Austria. Both my Godmother and her husband passed away long ago, before I became interested in militaria. They were quite old when I was born and they both passed away before I was old enough to remember. Their daughter gave me this grouping once I had developed an interest but knew nothing of her father's service. I would like to try to determine what he did, where and for what he might have received the medals. I can garner generic bits from the documents as to the nature of the awards, but I'd like to know more about what actions received what awards so I have a better understanding of this grouping in particular but of other medals I have acquired and hopefully will be acquiring. A question for Rick. Does the Mericka book also explain anything about the criteria for which the awards were given? Richard V

Well here is the grouping from my Godmother's husband. His name was Joseph W?nsch. Can anyone tell me where I might go to research the signatures on the documents? I'd like to do a bit of research on these documents as a whole but don't know where to start. First the medals and the award documents. Richard V

Mike, I would have to say the latter because of the 3rd Reich medals that are on the bars. I've loved the first bar from the day I aquired it as the FJ medal is one of my favorites. It is nothing short of a work of art and I had always wished to own one when suddenly this bar became available. The seller was kind enough to allow me to pay it out over time as my limited means didn't allow for the full price all at once, even though it was very reasonably priced (or so I believe). The second bar has always intrigued me as it belonged to an Austrian but it was someone who managed to qualify for the 15 year NSDAP award. I have always wondered what criteria were used to determine the 15 years in this individuals dossier. The Anschluss happened in 1938 and in another 7 years the war was over. I assume he might have been a "closet" National Socialist prior to the Anschluss, or (because of the EK2) might have been some type of Austrian that fought with the Germans in WW1 and perhaps received some kind of credit for his military service. It's always been a somewhat confusing bar for me. Of the many 3rd Reich awards, I appreciate the beauty of the 15 year NSDAP enameled cross. I'm a sucker for enamel but he deep azure color of this particular award makes it one of my favorites. I feel it is much more attractive than its rarer cousin, the 25 year award. Richard V