mravery

Hello boys, Another toy arrived today......

Thanks the comnents guys !! I shall heed your warnings..... Cheers Mark

Thanks WC I am familliar with that title.. just never knew who the author was. Cheers Mark

Ok guys, Not to sound ignorant... but what book are we discussing writen by Neil O'Connor ? Cheers Mark

Hey Ed, Thank you for your reply. I truly appreciate it and I also feel that this is an excellent topic to discuss between collectors. It is/was not my intention to try to sway or convince anyone to change their way of thinking but rather to have the conversation so that we may discuss our ?passions? with an open mind. To make the discussion even of more value, it?s nice to know that you and I are at the extreme ends of the spectrum which will make this a great topic. As I had originally stated?. None of the conversation was (or will) be taken personally and there was no offense taken by me from any of your comments. I would first like to make my disclaimer about medals. Any medals that are ?traceable? (i.e. British campaign medals named) should never be broken up? however I have used them in their entirety to create a bar. When the time comes for this bar to find a new home (I can only take so much with me in the coffin) it will fool no one as there are three separately named groups. None were mounted, all purchased as separates? so no need to take the oxygen Ed. Being a ?uniform? collector (I know has not much more value to you than the newspaper that you line the cat box with) and the temporary custodian (yes, you and I are on the same page with this) of the uniform before it passes to the next custodian, for me, is the true passion. Many of my uniforms are named and dated via a tailor?s label. As a uniform collector there is no other proof or closer way to know and honor the original owner than by having the uniform. Yes, as you mentioned, as a uniform collector.. the medals are just ?bright and shinny?s?, replicating the original service of the owner of the uniform. As a uniform collector and with the emphasis on the cloth, the justification (for me anyway) is that if it was not for the uniform, the medals would not exist. They were also made and awarded to be worn not locked in a display case or framed on the wall (until retirement that is). Should a Breast star or Commander?s badge be displayed on a uniform ? Heck yeah, that?s where it was originally intended for it to go. Only if it was the original one for the owner ?? who knows.. could not prove one way or the other and I would not care or try to prove it. In regards of display?.. Go for the house next door Ed. It would drive me nuts having a collection like yours without the ability to display them. I?m sure my time will also come as I have two young boys (3 and 6) that I?ll need to deal with at a later time. As you mentioned before?. Uniforms are not the easiest things to display nor are they space saving. As far as the ?making up groups?.. I can only speak for myself. The ?parts? that I use are replacements ribbons (new manufacture) with newly made fixtures (some brass, some plastic etc) and any medal collector who may look at these bars in the future will know the second that they get it in their hands (if not before). Anyone who tries to pass replicated bars as original is committing fraud (one of the disclaimers from my first post) and is meant to be outside of this conversation. Oh.. and just as a final comment?. Ed? I would consider taking my collection with me on my Viking funeral barge (for what I paid for some of it I probably should)?. But that would destroy history so it?s not an option! Cheers and please keep those cards and letters coming ! Mark

Hello All, I have placed a thread concerning creating medal bars here as that was not my intention for this thread: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=18295 Cheers Mark

Hello All, I?m not sure if this is the proper forum for this thread so if not, moderator can you please move it. In light of a few recent conversations I would like to post a thread discussing the creation of medal bars for the purpose of displays. There seems to be many comments in regards to this topic from both sides of the house. In reference to this, I would say that there is no ?wrong? answer as long as history is not destroyed in the process. First.. A few ground rules. 1) NO PERSONAL attacks?.. This goes against the entire reason for the Gentleman?s Military Interest Club and will not be tolerated. 2) The bars in discussion are for DISPLAY purposes only and are not made to deceive or defraud in any way. 3) The items used to create these bars were acquired WITHOUT destroying any original medal bars. 4) Moderator? PLEASE watch this thread and ensure that the comments made are for the benefit of the topic in question and that it remains ?Gentlemanly? in nature. Ok? with those out of the way?.. here is the topic?. At what point or ?extreme? is a collector doing harm to the hobby (if at all) when creating medal bars for displays? We as collectors are all very passionate in our interests and love the hobby. We all have different point?s of view and collecting interests. Case in point for an example??. I am a uniform collector specializing in General?s parade style uniforms. Hence, the need for medal bars. It is not often, if ever, that a collector would be able to acquire the uniform AND the original medal bar for a display (unless your lucky enough to get directly form the family). Being as such, medal bars are needed to be ?created? to properly honor the officer?s service. In my case, I use original medals/orders that are loose (I do not destroy any original bars) and create a representative medal bar once the general has been researched and his awards identified. Picture attached is Ernst I von Sax-Altenburg with a ?created? bar. I have had conversations with many medals and orders collectors over the years that feel that this is wrong. My reason for this thread is to discuss the reasons (pro and con) for this practice so that I can understand their reasons and perhaps they can understand mine. A few points to consider: Should loose medals stay loose ? I have seen British medal collectors that take the loose medals for a named soldier and properly mount them on ribbons, backed with cardboard, for display in glass cases. Is this ok ? If you acquire a loose medal without a ribbon.. should you put a ribbon on it for display ? If you have a commanders neck award.. should it only be displayed in the case, or is it ok to hang on a uniform ? If you have breast stars, should they be displayed on a uniform or left in a glass case ? If you acquire, say, loose Italian medals, is it ?ok? to slide them back on the bar ? For French uniforms, is it ?ok? to mount them on the uniforms individually (also applies to Austrian and Bulgarian) ? When is the ?display? enough ? Just some points to think about and I look forward to all replies. Cheers Mark

Hey Brian, Are you basing this "1st half 19th century painting of the Saint on a later (new) cross " for a Russian made piece ? I didn't know if the same rules would apply for a foriegn made one. Cheers Mark

Hey Paul, The loose medals ? I'm not expert.. but I would say that some were never mounted (they were awarded loose).. some may have been 'seconds'.... some may have been from bars that were 'butchered'..... also.... keep in mind that a lot of the European states required the gold orders and medals to be returned upon the death of the recipient... Hence the bars that are complete minus the gold items. Also.. from what I've been told.. many families sold off the gold items for money in order to live.... remember.... only we as collectors try to preserve the history behind these.... the families that owned them.. just wanted to survive..... There was a Bavarian MVO 2nd class in gold that I was chasing a while back that was missing two of the flames... the story was that the owner had them removed in the 50's so that he could melt down the gold to fill his teeth. (true or not.. don't know.. but it makes logical sense).... Cheers Mark

Brian Nothing came out in your thread ! Cheers Mark

Hi Heiko, I appreciate your reply to this thread.. and this subject should probably be discussed in another thread. We are ALL purists and passionate in one manner or another when it comes to this hobby. My love is in the uniforms and personalities of the men that wore them. One way that I can 'honor' thier service and respect to thier uniforms is to properly display them in thier full glory. In order to do this, they need to have medal bars. What are my chances of ever finding (not even mention affording) Ernst I von Sax-Altenburg original bar....... not a chance. So... in order to accomplish my goal, the bars must be 'created' (as evil sounding as that may be to some)... To do this I only use loose medals to create the display. In regards to Ernst, it took me 2 years to find the correct loose medals to finish the bar. It would have been easy to find respective bars with the medals and pull them off..... but that's NOT an option in my mind and never will be. Part of the passion is the love of history and destroying it defeats the love. What is the difference if someone displays a bunch of loose medals in a tray under glass.... or the same medals mounted and displayed on a bar ? Or...... is it proper to display a Commanders badge or a breast star in a case... or mounted on a uniform ? Where do the 'order purists' draw the line between what is acceptable and what is sacrilege? In reality.. the medals were made to be WORN not placed in a display case........ I can understand everyone having a passion. What I don't care for are the negative 'snippets' that are made without any further follow-up to the remarks when they are questioned. You mention the dealers creating these bars to sell as original.... well... that is a different story as that is a case of FRAUD for a profit.....and is a whole different problem. Sorry..... I'll come down off my 'soap box' now. Daniel.... NICE bar.... I can relate to your comment about time and money to create the display..... another fine display of a collecting passion ! Cheers Mark

Igor, NICE... what a fantastic medal bar...... andthanks for posting the French version ofthe St. Anne ! Cheers Mark

Hey Ed, Yes.. to create.. to 'replicate' a general's bar..... Using loose, non-mounted medals and putting them on a bar for display on a general's uniform. And.. before you ask (as you have asked me before in other threads)... NO... I never destroy any groups or original bars to make my displays. ALL of the items I use are loose items. The bars I create are also never meant to deceive as they are made up of modern parts (just original medals/orders or sometimes ribbon stock). Example of my bars... this one is for Ernst I von Sax-Altenburg. If you have a particular concern about this, please let me know. Cheers Mark

Hello All, I need a contact for ribbons to create a medal bar (for display)...... There are a couple of German medals and other countries... Original or newly made are fine (meant for display, not to deceive) ! Also... mounting bars (as shown in pic). Any ideas ? Cheers Mark

Don't suppose they have an email address ? The quote from the other collector was " I?m 100% sure there is at least one of him hanging were he was president prob. in Copenhagen" No no other details.....I would love to find it... then it would show the RAO on his medal bar Cheers Mark

Nope.. what you see is what you get........ Do you know of anywhere else where there might be a picture of him (archives etc) that I could write off too ? Another collector stated that they thought they saw a painting of him hanging somewhere. in Copenhagen ... but was not certian of that. Cheers Mark

Well.... I see your point... BUT..... No single medal.. as there are no loops for it....... the loops down the right side..... If he was wearing the sash for one of his Grand Crosses..... the stars would not be seen if they were higher as the sash would cover them And.... the number of loops would be right if you count the stars that he had circa 1934....... Just more for you to chew on ! Cheers Mark

Thanks Brian, Yes.. those are Imperial German generals. A couple are named and a couple are not. I'll post some pics later in th Collectors Display forum if you want to see them. Thanks for the kinds words ! Mike...... I have a thought about the medal bar....... In his picture that you posted... even his bar would be considered 'high' as it is in line with the top button...... and the top of his bar would line up with the top of my set of loops on the tunic. However, the metal plate would not be able to span the full length of the medal bar as the button would be in the way (I know I'm rambling.. but stay with me)...... What if his bar only had the metal plate running from, say the silver merit cross till the St. Anne (4th medal).. and then there was a 'button hole' in the ribbon for the RAO (or unknown medal) in position 5 ? Being that the medal bar was only supported from the very top of the ribbon (by the metal backing)... the short set of loop (on my tunic) would be for a second metal plate, pin back, to keep the medals from 'bouncing' as he moved around... I know this is 'way out there'... but I'm trying to determin why those loops are there....

edge

reverse

Hey Goerge, well.. here are the new pics... but not much betterthanthe first set I'm afraid.

Thanks George, If I get the better pics, I'll post them. Cheers Mark

Hey George, Yes.. I watched that one on ebay..... I figured the price was based on the garnet arms (special version ??)... I've asked for better pics of the one I've posted.. and I'll post them if they send them. Were these foreign made (who made them) and if so, how can I tell ? I'm also assuming that the foreign made ones cost less than the official Russian made versions. Cheers Mark

reverse

Hello All, Ok... this is a topic very distant than my area of collecting ... but I need to aquire one of these to complete a Danish general's uniform display. Is this badge original or not ? Seller states that it is gold.... with no maker mark... and pre-1918. 35mm in size. Also.... what is the going rate for one of these ? Cheers Mark