Ed_Haynes

Sometimes, sure. There are a number of researched ones presented here.

Many, however (late? unissued? secret?), defy research. Still, worth asking, but we're pretty much down to The Sole Source for Research.

All research, however, seems to be stalled (at best) these days. Not sure if there has been a policy mood-shift in Russia?

These are all good questions, and I have never found the file of discussions that led up to it. I fear they are buried in a place where mere mortals can't consult them, in the Ministry of Defence Historical Section in New Delhi. Though I have friends who can access them there.

My guess is that it pre-dated the issuance of campaign medals, to indicate service out of India. While it became less relevant as stars -- other than the 1939-43 (later 1939-45) Star and the Africa Star -- and medals came along after the war -- though the nasty dispute surrounding the Defence Medal in India may be relevant here -- I suspect it continued in wear (and, again, I know I have pictures someplace).

The only relevant (bearing a crown) overseas service after the was was in Southeast Asia which was so controversial and embarassing (restoring Dutch and French imperialism against rising nationalism) and in Palestine (with all THOSE problems) that I know the interim government wished there'd have been some way to sidestep even the British GSMs (but, during India's short time as a Dominion there was no constitutional way to tell the king 'Thanks for the offer of those medals, but no thanks').

Right now, the questions just have to ferment. Next time I'm back . . . .

Could it be that they were not limited to 1914-18 and were worn for overseas service after the war?

No, they were ONLY awarded for WWII. Not at all for WWI.

Speechless.

Lovely!

There's a nice sketch in the Dogra Regiment history of a Sepoy wearing his badge. As I recall it is centred on the pleat of his left breast pocket. (I also seem to recall it is captioned as being a Sepoy c. 1920!)

Which Dogra history, Michael? There are several.

"1920", eh? Amazing how WRONG these histories can get things!

They seem to have been worn on left chest, either above or below the ribbon bars.

Nice . . . thanks.

Nice one, Antonio.

Major-General Bikram Singh is wearing what in Punjabi would be a safa, but in English "turban" is just fine. He is wearing it in UN blue, of course. Sikhs, of course, would wear the turban (as required by their faith), while others on UN service normally adopt a UN blue beret (as Colonel K. M. Singh wears behind him), though there are ceremonial UN blue adaptations of the regimental headgear (some quite bizarre when rendered into baby blue).

His awards are quite interesting, including a lot of UN medals!

When I last met him at the Centre for Peackeeping Studies at the USI, New Delhi, he didn't have quite as much.

Indian troops serving with MONUC receive the Videsh Seva Medal, reissued with the old "Congo" clasp, plus the UN medal (of course). It is a pretty small Indian deployment, so that pair will be rather uncommon. (But so are so most of the 52 Videsh Seva Medal clasps!)

Interesting. Let me check mine . . . .

Nice new ones.

-- The Police (Special Duty) Medal is a bit of a problem child. While the names of all recipients are required to be published in the Gazette of India, the medal is not named and no clasps are indicated in the published notifications. Just mammoth lists of names. No one seems to know how many clasps exist for the medal. We have been able to identify sixteen, but have no confidence that the list is complete as local police administrations just concoct them with no approval process.

-- Oddly, the obverse on your OP Vijay Medal is not the national emblem (the lions), but the Vijay Stambh at Chittor (not the Jai Shambh, as the legend says!). Sadly, only officers' medals were named.

-- Is the 25th Independence Anniversary Medal named? Normally, they would be. Quasi-legitimate police awards and tailors' copies wouldn't be.

These three are unfortunate sad examples of the contemporary decline in the quality of Indian medal production, as only the 25th Independence Anniversary Medal was made at the Mint.

Yes, it would be good to know who this long-serving person is (was). And what may be missing?

Nice one. Thanks.

Suggestion: Don't so this. The gold gilt is thin and was made that way. "Fixing" this would be a more radical step than "fixing" your dog.

Please, don't destroy a nice piece that is just showing its age.

goodness, I?m not sure what is more attractive, the uniform or the wearer

As Mae West said, Daniel, "Goodness has nothing to do with it . . . . ."

(And, everything else aside, the uniforms are still, for my money, nasty and silly and disrespectful of the post-Tsarist history.)

Very (!!!) interesting . . .

. . . flatbacked (not mirror reverse) . . .

. . . and numbered (???) . . .

. . . much to ponder . . . .

Just a thought: Could these be variations in preservation? Sometimes the gilding is so thin that it tarnished, evaporates, or is simply absorbed into the substrate? It is so easy to concoct separate sub-sub-sub-variants simply on the individual (unique) appearance of each piece based on wear, mood (alcohol-intake?) of the maker, preservation, conditions of storage? Always a skeptic.

That's a very nice badge, I like it and have never seen one before.

Can it be compared with something like the Great War Imperial Service badge worn by territorials? E.g. volunteering/signing up for overseas service.

Tony

While I had never thought of it in those terms, Tony, this might not be a bad parallel. Except: (1) the Indian "territorials" were basically the existing training battalions of Indian Army regiments (result of the infamous 1922 reorganization) or European/Anglo-Indian establishments and (2) it was awarded to the (all-volunteer) Indian Army troops for overseas service. Need to dig out the full regulations . . . .

I feel an article gestating . . . .

Not really, Leigh. Most were unnamed and unnumbered. Unless they come with a group (which, of course, will usually be mostly named, like Nagina Singh's) with 100% provenance (his came from the family), they are just solo items. A few have been seen (like Chris') with numbers, which I assume to be regimental numbers (though the WWII numbering sequence is far more haphazard than the post-Independence ones and few reliable regimental links can be established for number ranges), and a very few are seen named (I have one in a group that poses many puzzles); I assume this numbering or naming was done regimentally or privately (unlike the WWII medals, which were named at the mint).

No, worn on uniform.

Somewhere I have some photos of it in wear.

Not all received it, of course, and I associate it (correctly?) with service units and not front-line folks. I have the regulations somewhere and, while they complex, they are not as silly as Gordon wants to make them sound.

Guess I need to add this to the list of things I need to write up for the JOMSA or, maybe, OMRS?

Actually had a scan here of the group to N/902511 L/Nk. Nagina Singh, A.S.C. (M.T.). Apologies for naked medals, so many yet to reribbon!

Independence Medal 1947 - N/902511 L/NK. NAGINA SINGH, A.S.C.(M.T.)

Defence Medal - MTN/902511 SEP. NAGINA SINGH, R.I.A.S.C. (M.T.)

War Medal - MTN/902511 SEP. NAGINA SINGH, R.I.A.S.C. (M.T.)

Overseas Badge

Unofficial George VI Coronation Medal

Suspect he served in Iran or Iraq.

So everyone knows what we're talking about, here is a scan I have. Will get some others home and do a better scan, maybe of some in groups?

Pretty easily available in New Delhi for Rs. 300 - Rs. 500 (around EUR 5 - EUR 9).

Not being in MYB it is fairly safe from silly price inflation. And most Western dealers don't bother with it, not knowing what it is.

It is the Indian Overseas Badge for WWII service. Gordon (4th ed.) makes some fairly derisive comments about it (Gordon at his worst), but it is generaly pretty much undocumented. A numbered badge is unusual, though I have seen them named as well.

I'll dig one out and post it.

A good book, and a really hard book to find these days.

Amazing! I got some of the auction last week leftovers. I wonder if his European collaborators in this auction are handling European mailings? But you CERTAINLY should have heard SOMETHING!!!

Forgive my ignorance Ed, is the lack of research ability on the OLG a result of availability of records?

Right. With the exception of early (pre-1940?) RBLs and BoHs, no records are available. I am not certain whether they really are not available or no one has looked. The focus has been on military awards, for better or worse.

The OLG is really nice, but, so far, it can't be researched .

The only 2nd class OLG (42440) that lives with me is in Iurii Anderivich Vol'vin's group.

I also have some 3rd class OLGs, in groups and as singles (both documented and undocumented).