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    Ed_Haynes

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    Posts posted by Ed_Haynes

    1. Wikipedia is as reliable (or unreliable) as its users make it. The German nobility article above, for example, is not all that well written or clear. It says "The nobility was divided in various subgroups" and then lists four in a row, but the first two and the second two are totally different concepts and overlap each other. Some Uradel were Hochadel, and the others Niedere Adel. Some (maybe all) Briefadel were Niedere Adel, since sovereigns, even in microstates of the Holy Roman and German Empires, had noble lineages going well back (even if that required creativity).

      The list in that article of examples of titles leaves out some less common ones, like Vogt, and variations of the ones there, like Kurf?rst, Markgraf and Reichsfreiherr. And there is no real precedence, as this varied heavily. Members of sovereign houses (Hochadel) generally ranked ahead of non-sovereigns (Niedere Adel), as their names indicate, but within the category of sovereigns, things were confusing. A prince normally outranks a duke, but a F?rst or Prinz of a sovereign house like Lippe or Liechtenstein did not outrank a duke. Also, within the lower nobility, I believe mediatized princes (members of former sovereign houses which had lost their sovereignty) outranked non-mediatized princes, no matter their actual titles.

      By the way, Junker, listed there as a category of lesser nobility, is considered a derogatory term by Junkers themselves.

      As I said, Dave:

      . . . While these (in various translations) differ in meaning and substance over time and space, . . . .

      Such a vague question is hard to engage, even with the notorious sloppy inaccuracies of 'Wikipedia'.

    2. True! Regardless of how outsiders see "history", how people deal with (or deny) their recent history is fascinating. Having gone, recently, directly from Delhi (where history from the British period is an inconvenient irrelevant embarassment -- except for cricket) to Moscow (where history is denied and disguised unless it is Tsarist) to Ulanbaatar (where history is accepted with a shrug) was powerful.

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