Ed_Haynes

. . . the Estonians give the impression that they are carrying on with a gap 1940-90s with the same orders.

Good point, Megan, and I, too, an enjoying these displays from an objective distance.

Sad, for this seems not to be much better than what we get in Hieronymussen, Rosignoli, or even Dorling or Werlich. Someone needs to do better!

I found a couple of copies (one is gone now ) on abebooks.com .

See also: http://www.uniforminsignia.net/index.php?p=state&id=97

But we've strayed a bit far from 'gongs'...

Right-oh.

Seeking a good reference book (English-language preferred) that deals with Yugoslavian (1945-91) ODM, all of them not just some arbitrary "military" sub-set. Are there any suggestions??

After all, she says tongue in cheek, you live in such a nation - a bunch of opportunists decided that being ruled by us lot across the pond wasn't really on. Fortunately our Royals didn't end up homeless as a result.

Actually, , I think the French or Russians had the right approach to their 'royals'.

It is hard to know exactly how to deal with these. As what we study extends from the highest awards for gallantry to school good attendance medals, we need to make room for all. But, in the interest of historical accuracy, we need to make it clear what is a State-awarded decoration and what is private (or worse) doo-dad. To ignore these pretender awards would miss an important historical and sociological aspect of what we study, but to include them in reverential ahistorical equality without comment (as the Sainty and Heydel-Mankoo volume comes dangerously close to doing) is to engage in (or indulge?) unhealthy fantasy.

The simple historical fact that many previously-imperial or -royal dynasties have been chucked into the historical dustbin during the 20th (and 21st?) century has left a large number of unemployed 'royal' descendants or variable legitimacy who now need some way to support their lavish lifestyles. It is a fact of great historical and phaleristic interest that these pretenders (for such they are) have discovered that they can concoct new orders or retain defunct orders that are now available against payment -- oops, for 'charitable contributions.' I think we need to (must!) study these things, but we also need to be very clear about what they are and about the fantasy existence of the 'dynasty' that awards them. While the term 'pretender' may sound pejorative (and, to be honest, I am not sure that bothers me), it is historically and legally accurate. Charles II was, in fact, a pretender from 1649 to 1661 as the line had been, literally, cut off.

And how different are they, say, from fantasy awards of fantasy countries? Isn't the Empire of Ethiopia today really as much a fantasy entity as the Grand Duchy of Avram?

Looking more at this I feel a bit uncomfortable. As these are around, I might pass this one up. It fells just a little crude. That may be damage or something worse. Shall post some close-ups.

'Pretender' as you like to put it, established by the Emperor in exile & awarded for distinguished & meritorious service to the Crown Council.

Fair enough. But I think it is important to distinguish between what is real and what is fanciful.

Did you forget the "maybe" ?

Nope, I see strong arguments on both sides.

'We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run down.'

Aneurin Bevan

Is this an official state award or a pretender-in-exile award? With contemporary Ethiopia, you need to be careful.

Gentlemen

Is it a good idea to open a thread thats going to feature a lot of medals from all over the globe? in no particular sequence?

or is better to add these awards to the threads already opened for the posting of specific countries awards??

just a thought.

Kevin in Deva.

Good question. I could comfortably answer "Yes" or "No".

See

http://www.medals.org.uk/nato/nato-text.htm

http://www.medals.lava.pl/int/int.htm (and scroll down to NATO)

http://www.coleccionesmilitares.com/cintas/cintasv.htm (and click on ORGANIZACI�N DEL TRATADO DEL ATL�NTICO NORTE (OTAN) | NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANIZATION (NATO))

http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=601 (hidden among other things)

http://www.nato.int/ims/docu/medals.pdf (if you really want to just break down and GO TO THE SOURCE, and I'm sure you could find more than just this by poking about on their site)

Be careful with Wikipedia, as I have to tell my students all the time.

Or, if you can read Spanish, just get Antonio's books!

How very interesting!!!!! Do go into more detail, I`d very much like to know, more.

A couple of years ago, when I was making the rounds of the old-time military tailors in New Delhi, asking the proprietors to dig into their back shelves for old obsolete medal ribbons that I could take off their hands, the elderly owner of one of the oldest such shops had his father visiting from the village in the shop. This gentlemen was not only VERY 'village' but looked old enough to have changed Methuselah's nappies. As his son pulled out a nice original roll of GSM 1918 ribbon, daddy recoiled in horror, asking me (in Hindi) why I wanted THAT THING. I explained as best I could, but as we got into a conversation the whole tale emerged of how he remembered this ribbon and how it was viewed in their village (in a major recruiting area in Punjab) and how that reputation -- he called it the 'ribbon of terror' -- was rooted in the terrible experiences of boys from the area in Iraq, which they described as 'worse than France, worse than Gallipoli'.

Talking that interesting conversation for what it was worth, I looked up the instructions to recruiters working the villages in the inter-war period and found in the archives the specific instructions not to wear that ribbon as it would render recruiting efforts impossible.

I should probably write this up for Durbar or maybe the OMRS journal?

Does anyone know if any books been written about this campaign?

It hasn't gotten much attention, alas. Probably because it was mainly an Indian Army operation (sparing the British from getting harmed -- much as the publications on WWI have fixated on France). For the few documents I have seen, it would have provided a good cautionary historical corrective (much as the First Afghan War might have) for the current adventurism. I did meet a chap -- and someplace I have his name -- who was from Cambridge University who was working on this war in the National Archives (of India, of course) this summer, so we may have something good some day.

Looks to this non-expert like you have a BRD Leistungsabzeichen.

See: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=19941&st=7 and http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7355

OK - so just the Order of the Red Star and other types like that (?)

Right. See, for example, http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=10376 or http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=12356

. . . (what range is Afghanistan???) . . . .

No OPWs for Afghanistan. It ended (as the name suggests) with the GPW victory. (There were late awards, but the "85s" are a quite different thing -- just for, as the song put it, "stayin' alive".)

To avoid needless cross-posting, let me just cross-reference my only 1870 group (though one I like):

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=4129&st=70

I have seen quite a number to reporters in the pre-1914 period. They are rare and quite sought after. I have also followed the debate (in India) as to whether they were or ought to be qualified for medals and under what conditions; at least in India, there was a general sense that they didn't deserve them, but that politics would get them for them anyway.

Post-WWII, things have gotten pretty sloppy all over, and anyone, military or civilian, who has heard that, some place, some time, shots may just have been fired in anger now seems to rate a medal (or six).

Thanks (again), Rick. Now to wait and wait and wait for the research . . . . (I am promised "some stuff" at OMSA, so . . . .)

This will require checking in WWII era Indian Army Lisst. I had a full set available a couple of weeks ago, but none now. His MC, if real (and Kempton has many errors) should be found in the online London Gazette, though his family name may be common enough to make it a LONG search, and it can be an immensely cranky source; also some WWII Indian Army MCs appeared only in the Gazette of India. All my Indian Army MC notes relate to Indians, not natives (of the British Isles).

I don't see any GREAT cause for concern, especially if the price if right. It has had a hard life.

Let me get mine in hand and compare.

XXX Anniversary:

His Warsaw was late (24.8.48)

but his 1948 was early (23.8.48). The 1948 looks a bit cleaer, but seems to say 21st Motorized TOPOGRAPHICAL.......

so please do the whole bottom of that page, the stamp AND the unit written underneath it on the 1948 Jubilee.

Verrrrrrry interesting.

Sorry this has taken so long. Life has been thus.

The Warsaw: