Ed_Haynes

Thanks for this. Very interesting.

So there is no restriction on the Fleece going to non-Christians? Somehow I recall that the Austrian Fleece had that restriction, but I could be (and often am) wrong.

Thank you again

Sorry for my poor idea of this languages

I waiting for the images of the other class (star) awarded to a spanish geneal

No problem, Antonio. Frankly, I might have trouble telling Spanish from Portugese.

Look forward to seeing the star. If I had a scanner, I'd put up the latest photo of Musharraf.

Thank you

Any idea for the translation of the arabic inscription on the bar?

Urdu, not Arabic. "Tamgha-i-Eissar" or "Medal of Eissar". Now . . . just what does "Eissar" mean? I hate misplacing vocabulary and I'm (thousands of miles away from my dictionaries -- and the chap on the desk at the university guesthouse doesn't know Arabised Pakistani neo-Urdu).

Interesting. The almost total lack of Urdu and over-use of English suggests this largely intended for "foreign friends". It may also explain a new ribbon that Pres.-Gen. M. is shown wearing in recent photos, with what seems to be a MiD leaf.

These are all detailed in Alexander Laslo's (sp?) fine book (get the 2nd ed) on the WWI victory medals. Not easy to find, but well worth the effort.

If it has the August/November scrolls it is a 1914 Star. If it does not, it is a 1914-15 Star. Different medals.

Nice group, by the way! It will be interesting to learn how an enlisted man got a OBE (gilt, right?). Or did he get commissioned during the war?

And thanks, Doc, it has been a pleasure. Maybe it is inspired by the things we collect and study, but the help of the COMMUNITY is amazing. While there are exeptions (but by and large not present on THIS forum), I have found the Soviet ODM collecting community to be open and welcoming. Specific names are hard to list, but it would include (first names only in alphabetical order): Alexei, Dave, Gregory, Paul & Paul, and Igor. But, in reality, my greatest thanks (my wife might style it as "blame") go to the "Red Banner GMIC Autonymous Phaleristic Collective".

Away from sources at present, but I think Battushig names the designer and they are designed by Mongolians, not Soviets.

See http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=10173 for other border guards awards.

Glad to see you have discovered Mongolian awards, Christian. Welcome to a new addiction!

WOW! I had translated that as "Tura Bura" and it never dawned on me! I guess the Soviets had a tough time fighting there too!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tora_Bora

Dave

Yeah, not a nice or easy area (at least when I was there with the UN in May 2002). Too much UXO to seen much though (and the camera battery died that day too). Afghans say they have used Tora Bora as an area of refuge against all the invaders of their country, from Alexander on.

And another one, Dave!

How times have changed!

Oh yesssss.

And the irony is one reason I posted it here, though post-socialist (obviously). Also, there was no logical other place to put it where we'd see it.

It is interesting (and telling?) that all the documents are there, except the important one. Rick is right (of course): Seeing more may reveal more, for good or ill.

I, too, have suspicions.

An interesting Belgian-British WWI "crossover" group is up at the nest DNW auction. Lot 858.

See: http://www.dnw.co.uk/dnw/medals/FMPro?-db=...5829&-find=

A Great War M.M. group of six awarded to J. L. de Keersmaeker, a Belgian National, imprisoned by the Germans for Espionage, 1916-18

Military Medal, G.V.R., unnamed as awarded to foreign nationals; British War Medal 1914-20, M.I.D. oak leaf (J. L. de Keersmaeker); Belgium, Victory Medal 1914-18, unnamed; Croix de Guerre, ?A? cypher; Civic Medal 1914-18, 1st Class, with swords, gilt, with clasp, 1914-1918; together with a British War Medal 1914-20 (L. M. Oeters) good very fine and better (6) ?800-1000

"US President George W. Bush, left, receives the 'National Flag Order' medal from his Albanian counterpart Alfred Moisiu, right, at the Palace of the Brigades in Tirana, Albania, on Sunday June 10, 2007. Bush started the working part of a quick, six-hour visit to Albania, arriving in Tirana from Rome and ahead of his departure for Bulgaria in the afternoon.(AP Photo/Hektor Pustina)"

(AP News Photo)

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070610/481/tir12706101350

Unless he has good Chinese language skills and can link up with the very active (and very good) Chinese phaleristic community, I'd agree it will probably be futile.

Antonio had posted this oiver at http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1838&st=65 but I thought it was worth duplicating here. Order of wearing is the length of the medals?

UPDATE:

Now identified as Sgt-Maj. Gambold Azzaya. His medals:

Order of Combat Valor

1- POLAND - Polish Army Medal (Medal Wojska Polskiego) in silver

2- POLAND - Multinational Division Central-South Commemorative Medal (Medal pamiatkowy Wielonarodowej Dywizji Centrum-Poludnie) - unofficial commemorative

3- UNITED NATIONS - UNMIL (United Nations Mission in Liberia) - where I was unaware Mongolians had been deployed??!!

4- The Mongolian medal for overseas/peacekeeping operations, but who knows what teh proper name is.

5- Unknown Mongolian.

While I have both the badges (above his right pocket and below the medals), they have so far eluded identification (well, I've never asked -- shall do so now).

See: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=20021

The OM is indeed a special case, has always seemed to me a conscious effort to have a British civil Pour le Merite. Whille I'd question how many of the honours (beyond the RVO) are really in the sovereign's control (at least since the mid-19th century), the OM does at least have "merit" in its name, though with a restricted and very focused definition.

But surely, even the Order of the British Empire is not, in my opinion totally "Class" or social standing democratic, as I can't imagine old Joe Postman or similar receiving higher levels of the various orders, more like an MBE.

Thats possibly the problem with the current Honours system, I believe at one stage there was a growing belief that the whole lot should be scrapped and replaced with a totally democratic system, genuinely based purely on merit, but what do you replace it with?, and would it have the same meaning as the established ones in peoples minds?

Alex

Sure, but in the early 20th century, the idea that anyone not of "family" or engaged in business in any way would be awarded any honour at all (except, perhaps, a baronetcy or knight bachelor, both of which had always had implied price tags attached) was scandalous. So much of the problem in the recent discussions of the honours system -- with much 'harrumphing' heard from self-designated traditionalist graybeards -- stems from the ignorance (1) that there never has been an honours 'system' frozen in absolute policy or unchanging time and (2) that in so far as there has been a 'system' it has been constantly shifting as political and cultural values changed (as they always have and always will, whether these graybeards like it or not).

In the context of the early 20th century (and maybe even the late 20th century) and as compared to the other orders, the Order of the British Empire was radical, revolutionary, almost socialist. It was intended to be all about merit, as oposed to the other orders that were never intended to have anything at all to do with merit.

A case of "Not what you know, but who you know"!

thanks for the info

regards

The problems, by the way, really came up with the creation of the Order of the British Empire, which represented a massive restructuring of the way honours happened and were seen. It was a revolutionary British order (if that is not a contradiction in terms): (1) it was about MERIT not birth; (2) it was arranged in a CONTINENTAL five-class structure (the Royal Victorian Order doesn't count here, as it was a dynastic order, and those transplanted German royals could do as they wished and no one cared as it wasn't central to the 'system'); (3) it was open to bizarre and scary groups, like women and businessmen; (4) it was awarded freely, in large numbers, too freely as it developed; and (5) while it never did, it was intended to end when the Great War ended, to be an order with a fixed lifespan. Even beyond the oddly and sadly tattered name, it remains a puzzle among British orders.

Hi Ed, interesting, I'm obviously living slightly in the past Why do people who are receiving New Years, Queens Birthday Honours etc still go to Buckingham Palace?, I thought that was the whole point of the procedure?

regards

Alex

What I was talking about is what was done in the past, pre-WWII. Maybe now, where there are fewer awards to give out, as there's no empire in which to bestow the Order of the British 'Empire', and the monarch has rather less to do, maybe she does give out all the lowly "C" awards and even the bottom-feeding "O" and "M" awards. It would fill up her time. Don't know. I do know the policy from earlier days better, when if there was no knighthood involved (a "G" or a "K" or even a lowly knight bachelor), the recipients could expect their awards in the post unless they really whined and moaned (or had connections) to have it presented by a 'someone', though not always the king.

Gallantry awards, of course, were something else, and somebody usually presented them, though hardly always the sovereign.

Nice one.

Rarely, if ever, would there have been any kind of royal (or other) presentation ritual for a commander grade (the "C") level (CB, CBE, CSI, CMG, CIE, etc.), as only at the "K" level (KCB, KBE/DBE, KCSI, KCMG, KCIE, etc.), where there was knighthood involved, was any sort of dubbing ritual involved. Of course, the "G" awards entailed more circus (GCB, GBE, GCSI, GCMG, GCIE, etc.). This dubbing could be conducted by the monarch or their deputee. In many cases, however, these things were just sent out by registered post and you signed a receipt, and that was all the "bestowal" you'd get.

I don't think this one was legal trender anyway, so you're safe.

Hi.Somebody can give the address of shop Nota Bene.

Thanks.

Now out of business except, perhaps, for some Mongolian items, if he can get them.

See: http://pweb.netcom.com/~merezhko/militaria.html

Hallo Ed

I understand your reasons with regards this, because you have been the most active in informing the medal community what crass nonsense the so called "Stolen Valour Act" was in the first place, however i do think we have to stick to the no politics guide-lines as set down by the GMIC Chairman.

Kevin in Deva

Makes sense Kevin, but determining what is and is not "politics" is not a task I'd wish on anyone. Why is a respectful posting of casualty notices on only one side of a controversial ongoing conflict not a blatant political statement?

What members of the U.S. Government do or other U.S. Officials and Politicians has no bearing on this thread unless they are contravening the law with regards the Stolen Valour Act.

Or, perhaps, if they were responsible for shoving this monstrosity through into law?

No information as to where or under what circumstances the picture was taken?