Ed_Haynes

Nice thread. Let me dig out some things to add.

In the interim, you may wish to glance at:

http://faculty.winthrop.edu/haynese/medals/Afghan/fifth.html

I have, however, stopped any online updating after large parts of my site were stolen and put verbatim into a JOMSA article.

Thanks, Milan. I hope an e-mail in English wasn't a problem either. They have a really impressive site, even beyond the sorts of things that excite us. Ed

I have sent a number of e-mails to the folks at

http://www.singidunum-online.com/

Has anyone ever been able to contact them?

Am I wasting my time??

And we are NOT talking about their election?

Great, Megan. The, for the Order of Literacy Valor and its successors, see:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=4242

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=4236

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=4243

Guess I need to merge these threads, eh?

Seek preexisting knowledge, Megan, and reinvent not the wheel, especially if that new "wheel" is square?

For sure Olomouc - it's Russian name is spelled here Оломовц (Olomovts), the correct spelling would be Оломоуц. It was captured by the 4th Ukrainian Front in the last days of the war, during the Prague offensive. HTH

Igor

Thanks, Igor!

Megan,

A few points:

-- The 1926 version is small star, no number (post 125)

-- The 1931 version is large star, numbered (post 126)

-- The 1970 version is the post-1970 (?) type 2.1 of the post-1945 variety

Yuri's stuff is, generally, good, but for Things Mongolian stay with the winners, this very site and forum! Best images, best information! (Wish Yuri were here.)

There has been more good word done here (even with some core participants AWOL or just "strayed") in just a few months, than everything done previously. And, as I have said, the malignant disinformation of earlier sources becomes increasingly clear through what we've done here.

Soon, we shall have more information, and it will be here first, and only (until someone steals it).

Quite a distinguished group. Thanks for showing it!

This is the 3rd type, isn't it?

Actually, it is far more complex.

See: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=4240&st=110

This, as I recall, is a Red Banner of Military Valor (1945--), the fourth major variety, a type 1.1. But in poor condition.

To clarify and update the typology referenced above (with Battushig references):

THE ORDER OF MILITARY VALOR (1926-31)

1st award (small star, 3 maker?s marks, no s/n) - A 21

2nd award (Arabic number ?2? at bottom)

3rd award (Arabic number ?3? at bottom)

4th award (Arabic number ?4? at bottom)

ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF MILITARY VALOUR (1931-40)

1st award:

-- Type 1 (large star, МОНДВОР, s/n No) - Low = 188/High = 613 - A 21.2

-- Type 2 (large star, МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР, s/n No) - Low = 318/High = ??

2nd award (large star, Mongolian number 2) - Low = ??/High = 69 - A 21.3

3rd award (large star, Mongolian number 3, not seen?) - Low = ??/High = ??

4th award - (large star, Mongolian number 4, not seen?) - Low = ??/High = ??

ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF MILITARY VALOUR (1940-45)

1st award:

-- Type 1.1 (МОНДВОР mintmark; 3 rivets) - Low = 110/High = ??? - A 22.1?

-- Type 1.2 (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; 3 rivets) - Low= 44/High=212

-- Type 1.3.1 (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; 4 rivets; SN at 6 o'clock near bottom) - Low = 306/High = 2401

-- Type 1.3.2 (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; 4 rivets; SN directly below screwpost) - Low = 1007/High = 2581

2nd award - Low = 53/High = 56 - A 22.2

3rd award - Low = ??/High = ?? - A 22.3

4th award (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; SN at 6 o'clock near bottom; 4 rivets) - Low = 74/High = 150 - A 22.4

ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF MILITARY VALOUR (1945--)

1st award:

-- Type 1.1 (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost) - Low = 50/High = 2794 - A 23.1

-- Type 1.2 (as above, but with Cyrillic ?B? mintmark) - Low = 1332/High = 1901

-- Type 2.1 (Pinback 3 rivets; SN at 12 o'clock) - Low = 3160/High = 4449 - A 24.1

-- Type 2.2 (Pinback 2 rivets; SN at 5 o'clock) - Low = 4685/High = 5380

-- Type 3.1 (pinback, bronze) - Low = 5512/High = 5607 - A 24.2

-- Type 3.2 (pinback, bronze, unnumbered, escapee?)

2nd award (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost ? perhaps 40 awarded?) - Low = 12/High = 398 - A 23.2

3rd award (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost ? perhaps 10-15 awarded?) - Low = 5/High = 200 - A 23.3

4th award (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost ? perhaps 4-5 awarded?) - Low = 3/High = 86 - A 23.4

Then I think I'd better scamper off & change my dates... Got it from Yuri Yashnev's site, if you are interested in the source of my info. Not sure what his authority was!

My guess is that Yuri lifted from Herfurth or from the Russian translation (and that I think was Herfurth's source too?) of Ц. Tэрбиш, Бнмaу-ын одон, мeдaлЬ aлдaр цол туунийг aнх хуртэгчигд (Ulanbaatar: 1977). Bat used this too, but found it very flawed and needed to consult the records.

This is certainly the place where Herfurth lifts many of his images.

I have been told -- but cannot confirm -- that there are some very nice (= very dangerous) fake Sukhbaatar Orders coming out of Russia. Maybe these, maybe others?

THE absolute MUST-HAVE!!! Try Collect Russia (Igor) or Nota Bene (Alexei).

http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=13919

http://home.netcom.com/~merezhko/othercoun...s.html#Mongolia item # 133

Battushig shows it on page 45.

As yet, I do not have the Real Thing to show. Working on it.

Battushig's book, by the way, is about to fade into collectible status in its own right. The author's stock is depleted. Be advised.

While a 2nd edition is in contemplation, don't expect it anytime soon.

Interesting my group would be a 14-15 star, BWM, and VM. Hard to screw up that group.

Do you have a ballpark figure on how much that would be? Sound like it maybe 100 GBP +. Ouch.

Steiner

I doubt if even Spink could mess those up.

I can't recall how much it was, but it hurt. As Eitze said, substantially more than the group!

You may want to try to find real period ribbon for them to use, as they'd use nasty modern ugly stuff. For the WWI medals, it really matters!

Thanks for the advice Ed. I liked that mounting so much I was considering having Spinks do my Greatgrandfather's WW1 group. Now I will reconsider.

Regards

Steiner

For normal British stuff, thee are good, if you start saving far enough (decades?) in advance. I am surprised they are so good at southern Artican medals, for they make a dog's dinner out of southern Asian ones.

See, for example

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2450&st=17

Yes, there is always a problem where someone who has not done the research (and even lacks the basic skills to do that research) says something, it gets quoted, that quote gets requoted (always without attribution, by the way), and the poison of ignorance and misinformation spreads and spreads.

If someone (who could read them) had just looked at the records . . . !!

When the award rolls become available, many things will be clarified, many "experts" repudiated.

Battushig (p. 23) says ". . . the presidium of the State Lower Assembly decided to create a new supreme state order -- the Order of Sukhbaatar on September 27th 1945." Much as I may respect those other authorities, I take his word for it until someone does more real research. I suspect that 1941 date is from Herfurth, who says many things that cannot be supported.

Yeah, Spink does a good, if VERY expensive, job of mounting. You were lucky that they (1) got the order right and (2) didn't flip the ribbons that are not palindromes! My experience on these two fronts has been way less than successful or satisfactory. They don't know, won't ask, and can't be told. They are Spink.

Yes, this one could tell a really interesting story! Lovely.

Ed,

1. Where is the overlap of serial numbers for the Order of the Polar Star?

All over, I fear. Until someone goes thropugh the rolls in detail, we have no chance of making much sense of it; and "someone" will be starting on the rolls this fall. See the type and serial number ranges in the PS thread (no significant updates, but I updated anyway).

2. Which medal is the "We Won"? My brain isn't alive yet.

Doc

Often (inaccurately) called "Victory over Japan" (A 41).

Update on typology and serial number ranges. The confusion thrives.

Type 1 (Screwback; МОНДВОР mintmark; long oval design with two red banners, ~300 awarded) - Low = 316/High = 792

Type 2.1 (Screwback; upward-curved МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; Uighur; SN at 6 o'clock near bottom) - Low = 9/High = 2831

Type 2.2 (Screwback; downward-curved МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; Uighur; SN directly below screwpost) - Low = 1151/

High = 2878

Type 2.3 (Screwback; no mintmark; Uighur; SN at 7 o?clock) - Low = 1562/High = ????

Type 2.4 (Screwback; hand-engraved МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; Uighur; SN at 6 o'clock near bottom) - Low = 1710/High = 1776

Type 3.1 (Screwback; Cyrillic; slightly concave reverse; SN at 7 o'clock) - Low = 2/High = 6952

Type 3.2 (Screwback; Cyrillic; flat reverse; SN directly below screwpost) - Low = 5094/High = 9941

Type 3.3 (Screwback; Cyrillic; flat reverse; SN at 6 o'clock) - Low = 10007/High = 15000

Type 4.1 (Pinback, silver) - Low = 15015/High = 30426

Type 4.2 (pinback, bronze) - Low = 31650/High = 39785

Type 4.3 (pinback, bronze, no serial number, unawarded escapee?)

Lovely tale woven around a simple medal. This is something that many who don't collect British (as broadly defined) medals sometimes miss. Each medal, being named, is unique, quite literally. And each has the tale of an individual wrapped up in that chunk of metal and length of ribbon. And, often, this a powerful (though sometimes mundane) tale, but it can almost always be dug out by diligent research. And often -- especially for folks such as those I focus on in the Indian Army -- this medal is their only memorial, their sole remembrance. Otherwise, they are lost to history, unremembered. Without making it sound sappy, this research is indeed, as you have put it so rightly, a "mission" and a duty. Thanks for sharing.

Yes, I saw that. This is why I said what I did and it is part of what makes the document so interesting. This is part of what makes me want the reference so I can see this the next time I'm at the PRO. Presumably, similar sheets exist for other allied countries.

Interesting, Igor. Do you have the reference to this?

These seem to be wartime awards, not Civil War. We need to separate the two sets of numbers.

No, I was thinking of the cadet officer chevrons that are worn by a wide range of military academies (USMA, VMI, Citadel, etc.).

But what you show are just bizarre beyone belief!!

Wow!