Luftmensch

Ouch...this is hard. Which of Jacques' are incused? The top middle one? Here's mine again...

Stogie, you've NEVER seen a flying badge with a crown that you liked? Ever??

I think you've got the logic backwards, Tom. Bob and Stogie are slowly building a convincing case that all flying badges with crowns are bad. But no crown guys are saying all flying badges need crowns and those without crowns are bad, they're saying some do, some don't, just like the regulation that leaves it up to the manufacturer. Now you've brought up EKs. EKs are "small wares." Some have crowns. Does that make them bad? No. So why can't some flying badges have crowns, too? Sign me devil's advocate...

Good idea, Stogie. I found Jacques in the email list and asked him to post here or email you some incused CEJs, because I will be travelling for a week... Rgds John

"INCUSED" So that's what it's called...a raised CEJ within an incused box. I thought it was cast. But I couldn't see pitting marks like you'd normally see in a cast. I would like to see more examples of incused CEJs, too, but I can't find any, only references to Assman and BSW being incused. Thanks for the insight, Stogie.

Sorry to hear that Ed...back to medals.

Of course! But it is a balance. I casually used the word our "investments" which is on a semantical #@*! list and wound up representing the Weltkrieg Investments Fund, Inc.! Even as investments, there maybe something subconscious about our preferences. I know a furrier who buys every Waterloo medal that comes up for auction. I'm not sure if he knows what century the battle occurred. For him it's a pure income play. But maybe he's the reincarnation of Wellington!

AHA...that's why this forum reads like an EVIL Twin Mutual Admiration Society. Actually you two make it look easy the way you deftly weave a mob of discordant voices into a tapestry of colorful revelation and fellowship! Howzat for starters?

Ed, talk to a university employed historian about the importance of publishing.

Actually, the few TRUE historians I know are very interested in the commercial development of their ideas--whether through publishing, consulting, and so on--so they can feed their families...

You doth protest too much, Rick. I can wax endlessly on the psychic virtues of why I collect. But no one wants to lose money. That's why we discuss the originality of pieces, to safeguard our.....[you insert the word you have the least semantical difficulty with]. Stogieman buys and sells and earns a return on his...[insert word]. In their old ages, many collectors will need to convert their....[insert word] ....for health needs, grandchildren, retirements and so on. Only the very rich or the very irresponsible can divorce themselves from financial considerations. I was only wondering if kids are entering this hobby to ensure its viability, not whether I need to sell medal bars and buy shares of Google.

Good points, Chris. I think many if not most collectors (myself included) started with TR. The stuff was designed to get a visceral reaction out of ANYBODY! (Good for recruitment.) Unfortunately most do not outgrow it. I'm not laying a judgment on that field or period. I see the the period 1914 - 1945 as a 30 years war, with time out to raise a new generation of cannon fodder. I just don't see how people can get excited for a lifetime's worth of collecting chasing the same old run-of-the-mill daggers, badges etc. In Imperial (and I collect aviation of allied nations, too) you've got fantastic diversity.

What about the future of the hobby and the security of our investments? Has anyone noticed if there are more young collectors of Nazi than of Imperial poking around the shows? I think prices on a lot of items are peaking, but still high enough and fraught enough with problems of authenticity to keep new collectors out. I just heard of someone paying $16,000 for an SS steel helmet. Who are we going to pass this stuff onto at the prices we paid?

You win a case from Stogie's workshop in Shenyang. I don't have strong views on anything but the cased Schaper being good. Thanks, Stogie!! woohoo, a Schaper case!!! But, hey, with all this chatter about Juncker crowns, how about the later CEJ mark? There must have been some legit postwar pieces with them. What should they look like? Rgds John

Another one...

Okay, before you hit Cancun on that post-Wilma deal, tell me what you know about CEJs. You guys are tooooo polite! Mine is probably cast in. That's why I included it in this scary Hallowe'en post. How about these, any of these early, rare marks look right? (most are off Spanish Crosses)...

BWAHAHAHAHA... Now's your turn...your toooo polite. Take another look at that CEJ Juncker marked Zep and tell me what you REALLY think...

OMIGOD...he's making them...how much for a gross?

Here ya go...here's a "small ware" with a crown, smaller than a badge (I weighed them). Therefore, where there's one, there are probably others including, maybe, flying badges? Meantime, I'll approach all crowns with extreme caution. An M.G. Schiesspreis from a Fliegerbeobachterschule.

Stogie, you are a scholar and a gentleman...

Lastly, as a postscript to the thread on Robert Pandis' article about crown / no-crown, where he writes: Further, the Imperial Crown must...appear to the right of the Crescent Moon. An exception in Paragraph 9 of the Order is made for jewelry and small wares; which were not required to be marked Robert's hypothesis works if we assume mfrs of badges used the exception to get out of the extra work of whacking in a crown since a badge was a "small ware." Here is a small ware that is smaller than a badge (I weighed it), and it has a crown. So there are probably other small wares with crowns and some of them might be flying badges! The cup is an air gunner prize from a Fliegerbeobachterschule.

By the way... Here's a blow-up of the CEJ logo on the cased Zep, for Brian who asked...

Whaddya think? The only cased Schaper badge I've ever seen--I think. Rick mentioned something about all the fake Navy badges hitting eBay. One clue is that "SCHAPER" is cast into the pin. You can really see the difference here. It is really whacked in--deep. The box, however, I got separately. There was a faint outline of a badge, and this Schaper fits it like a glove. It just looks a little too good !?!

The back...