Luftmensch

Thanks for the comments! I have the advantage of being able to compare this side by side with my two RNAS examples. Rayon is in production by 1924 which is right around that period I am querying. The visor is identical in dimension and the chinstrap identical in every respect to the blue RNAS I show. The crown is a hair larger than the blue but actually smaller than on my khaki RNAS, so those aren't obvious tells either. I am also suspicious that this is a made up RN cap but everything is so tightly sewn in and the eagle looks like it's been in there forever but that's not very scientific. Thanks for the warnings about previous made up examples, except this would be a very bungled effort to fake an RNAS cap because the wreath is completely wrong. Since none of you can examine this, I'm trying to approach this from the other end... What did Naval pilots wear in the RAF prior to 1924? What did the FAA of the RAF wear in 1924 and subsequently if patterns changed? If the answer is not the above, then it must be some Frankenstein's creation. As to the name, I can't yet make out every letter but that's a good suggestion. I'm not an RNAS specialist, Mervyn. My primary obsession is Zeppelins and First Blitz on London, which sometimes leads me on tangents like this, when I get into Home Defence and so on. Rgds John

So.... 1. Some unknown hybrid RNAS/RAF/RN design from 1919-1924? or... 2. "1 April 1924, the Fleet Air Arm of the Royal Air Force was formed, encompassing those RAF units that normally embarked on aircraft carriers and fighting ships." (Wiki) or... 3. " On 24 May 1939 the Fleet Air Arm was returned to Admiralty control[5] under the Inskip Award and renamed the Air Branch of the Royal Navy." (Wiki) But the RN FAA caps I've seen had an anchor inside the wreath, but they might have started out with something different and then modified it... Drawing blanks?

Nope. Look at the wreath again, especially below the eagle. Plus, the RNAS eagle is smaller and silver.

Or....if no one knows....can anyone date Gieves labels or have an identical one in clothing of known period??

Can someone help ID this? it looks like a hybrid between an RNAS and later RAF visor. Is this from that little known era 1919-1924 prior to Fleet Air Arm, or is it in fact FAA, or something else entirely?

No worries!

Friend got these as a gift from a very old old old friend of the family. Any idea as to rank and regiment? Thanks.

Hi, Chris The group is leaving the country after all, to someone who feels US aces' groups are undervalued next to UK or German groups--one of the themes of our heated debate! I'm happy with my price, which is close to what I wanted after stripping out high price commissions. This knowledgeable collector has already pointed out a few things about Swaab I did not know, so it's found a good home--closer to Swaab's old hunting grounds. Rgds

Hiya, Les Just sent you an email. You still bronzing that pasty (but toned) physique under a tropic sun? While we're pitching forecasts, if we can just keep inflation under 10% then maybe collectibles will be a good hedge...or else it's every man for the consumables! Another bout of hyperinflation would not be good for the Bechers that survived the first round!!!

Thanks and I do agree with much you have said. But in a thinly traded market one buyer can establish market value, even if it changes with the next sale. I don't know how you can possibly define "objective" value. As for why this is at a foreign auction...no auction house here but Jeff's as far as I know has a regular dedicated medal sale. I bought the Swaab group buried in a gun sale. I would never sell it that way. And then we haven't begun to touch on buyer psychology. I have seen times where a buyer will turn up his nose at a presentation sword or headdress on a dealer's table, who will then consign it at the end of the season and the selfsame buyer will pay more for it at auction, come crowing back to the seller and say "look what I bought" and flatly refuse to accept it was the same piece... All of my heavy-hitting groups have gone to European collectors or museums. Why? Don't know...

Chris, there is no difference between market value and what someone is willing to pay. These groups have no intrinsic value to speak of. Buyers and sellers in any given moment establish the value of things. Look at financial markets and their volatility. There supply and demand adjust in nanoseconds. I firmly believe in 20 years, low-end militaria will be littering the floors. We will all be dead or downsizing, and the generations after us will continue in the thrall of their plastic devices. At the high end, collectibles in all categories continue to make new records as the wealthy few bid each other up with their growing share of the wealth. I still feel the Brits market their history better, probably because they are so dependent on tourist, ie American, dollars. Look how many London dealers have folded since 9/11 for want of American visitors. But the auction houses are thriving and there are so many more of them to promote British medals. This group might have been consigned to a UK house, if not for the fact that Andreas Thies spoke up first believing that its Jewish interest made it very desirable. As I said in my thread, they had a reputation for not fighting which, of course, is racist idiocy. Andreas knows his market, but if he has miscalculated I'll be happy to take this back. I know where Swaab's Spad fabric and flying suit are.... I disagree about Allied groups. I've never had a chance to own one comparable in emotive value to this Swaab group. The few I've been attracted to have been high five to six figures. It's also hard to compare Allied with American groups, since it must be reckoned how quickly the Americans had to develop their air arm. Swaab went from inept fledgling to double ace in some thirty days. I've had a few German aviator groups of less import than Swaab IMHO yet they have realized more than the opening bid for Swaab! Supply AND demand...

Thanks for your correction, Tim. I wrote this rather quickly and with some annoyance. I meant to say three silver star groups to WW1 aviators that have come up for sale to collectors, referring to a database someone on another forum has been compiling. At any rate, Swaab was one of those 10 Oak Leaf Clusters. I'd be interested in knowing how many of those double SSMs were awarded the DSC? Rgds

You crack me up, Chris!!! You know more than I do! I negotiated with one collector ONLY who tried to chisel on the group, and called repeatedly over several years to see if I'd fallen on hard times and dropped my price. Before the auction it was on display at an OMSA convention and last year at the MAX. 10 kills in a few weeks? Highly emotive actions? Medal of Honor recommendation from Ray Brooks? One of only three silver stars awarded to an aviator? plus DSC, plus purple heart and Air Medal? Gold / enamel squadron pin? (One of only three I know of, including Brooks' in the Smithsonian.) I have never had the opportunity to own a better US group in 30 years of collecting. Not sure what to make of your comparison of this to a piece of fabric...and six kills are fewer than 10 last time I counted. Using your math $26,000 divided by six kills is about 4,300 per kill. Swaab has ten. But I wasn't really thinking in terms of this kind of arithmetic when I bought the group. Peter Hlinka, one of those "senior collectors" and a lifetime member of OMSA and OMRS who also happened to work for Bannerman and Flayderman for decades, told me before the auction years ago to be prepared to spend 30-35,000 for this group on account of its calibre. I might have, too, if Butterfields hadn't accidentally lost a heavy-hitting phone bidder and tried unsuccessfully for almost two minutes to get him back while I sweated bullets. Lose money? How does that work? The bottom about to fall out of our hobby? Newsflash--all our stuff is only worth what someone somewhere is willing to pay for it. Rgds

Exactly. Yours is Meybauer? It also looks similar to Schott, doesn't it?

Fabulous, Alex, fabulous...like the fabled unicorn only rarer! BTW do you believe what another mutual frined says that there is no such thing as a real Juncker Luftschiffer badge??

Wow...excellent observation, TIm. I overlooked the whole posthumous angle. I guess Brooks realized at the time his living ace was a long shot...having survived the war he would not survive the process. Thanks.

Dunno, what are you driving these days? Rgds :whistle:

After the war Swaab settled in Manhattan and job hopped, variously working as an executive for Fleer, then a cigar manufacturer, a women’s garments firm, and as a business consultant. He was technical advisor on Howard Hawks’ 1930 film, the original Dawn Patrol with Douglas Fairbanks, Jr., although a lot of sites state Swaab worked on the 1938 version. He was an early member of Cross and Cockade and the main speaker at the August 17, 1962 meeting. He died a year later of heart trouble and was buried at Arlington, his squadron mate Ray Brooks present along with other notables including General Carl Spaatz. I find it interesting that in various Who’s Whos over the years Swaab's recommendation by Brooks for the “Congressional Medal of Honor” on April 1, 1919 is listed as an accomplishment...THE END!

...and then the long shot (the wing is for my sense of symmetry--not Swaab's)...

That leaves his state medals...

Later in 1932 comes Swaab's Silver Star. Swaab was awarded three Citation Certificates and Stars which he didn't mount on his full-sized Victory medal so as not to mess up the symmetry! Here they are on his ribbon bars. He needs two Victory medal ribbons for all the appurtenaces!--three silver star citations on the left ribbon, and three bronze stars on the rightmost for his battle and service clasps. So, with the authorization of the Silver Star in July, 1932 he presnted copies of the orders making him eligible for the Citation Stars and gets the new medal with a bronze oak leaf cluster...? QUESTION: Would someone help me with my math? Isn't he one bronze star short? Is he worried about symmetry again?

Then in 1932 comes his Purple Heart, for having his hair parted three times by bullets on September 8, 1918...

In the 19020s there seemed to be innumerable veterans' organizations, including a few for flying officers on opposite sides to come together as comrades of the air--most of these, it seems, did not survive the Depression. Swaab evidently like this organization enough that he glued its membership card in among his medals... The ID is signed by Major Schauffler, Assistant Chief of Staff of the Air Service whose signature appears above.

Also in 1920 Swaab received his Victory medal, which he decorates to good effect--two battle clasps, the "Defensive Sector" service clasp, and one star for every personal confirmed victory!

Swaab's DSC came through in 1920. The citation reads... The President of the United States of America, authorized by Act of Congress, July 9, 1918, takes pleasure in presenting the Distinguished Service Cross to First Lieutenant (Air Service) Jacques M. Swaab, United States Army Air Service, for extraordinary heroism in action while serving with 22d Aero Squadron, 2d Pursuit Group, U.S. Army Air Service, A.E.F., near Montfaucon, France, 28 September 1918, and in the region of Champignuelle, 27 October 1918. On September 28 Lieutenant Swaab, although himself pursued by two enemy planes, perceiving one of his comrades in distress and in danger of being shot down, dived upon the enemy plane which was directly behind that of his comrade and shot the enemy plane out of control, forcing it to withdraw. His prompt act in going to the assistance of his comrade enabled the latter to escape. On October 27 Lieutenant Swaab and another member of his group engaged in combat with seven enemy planes. In this encounter, although outnumbered, Lieutenant Swaab continued in his attack and succeeded in shooting down an enemy D. F. W. observation plane. War Department, General Orders No. 53 (1920) Notice there is no reference to Swaab's exploit's on September 8, 1918!!! But the citation cherrypicks two of the list of dates offered by Brooks in his MOH application.