MCMH

The "Gazette of India" itself is of limited use if you aren't able to visit the National Arcgives, New Delihi, as it literally repeates the information on the back - although in some cases it may provide some small extra details, such as the Rank Profession or State Location of the recipient. However, if you are able to visit the National Archives, New Delhi, the GoI is invaluable because the section in which the notice was printed, combined with details of whom it was requested by, allows you (through much hard work) to trace the original recomendation files - which is where Ed obtained this information. There are no Title Badge Citations in Honours correspondance in the India Office (I know where they should be located, and have looked), though you may find a letter stating claims x - xx had been aproved, X has been turned down, and Y was refered to another authority, and granted. Unfortunately James is not correct about what he says - in many cases the Provincial Gazettes only repeat information published in the GoI. Since these notices can be printed many weeks later, citing the GoI Date, you can waste quite a lot of time hunting for the notice - and then it will only regurgitate the original GoI entry - with no further details. As for finding the references in the GoI it takes between 1 - 2 hours, including the time it takes to order the GoI. That said there are other ways of reconstructing the career of an individual, both secondary and primary sources, but it depends upon who they were. If you would like to send me the details, I can make some recomendations. As for Ed having left this forum, it was a pity. Indeed I hardly visit this site due to some of the abuse metted out by one of the posters above - whilst I do not agree with all Ed's views, I cannot abide somone who claims to speak up for the proud history of the British Empire whilst thinking it clever to make mildly racist taunts to wind someone up.

Yes, the first group I came across (and bought - ent OBI 1945. WS Sub Major 1945) the medals were hanging by their threads on the swing bar, and I thought that the 1939-45 Star may have become detached. However the second group was to a Sepoy of the same same battalion, and it too was missing the 1939-45 star - the latter a confirmed POW. I believe it must be something to do with how the medals were awarded before or following Independence, but do not have enough data to work it out. It is possible for instance that POW and Pension files were not transferred to Pakistan, and demobbed men had no way of confirming earlier service. The F&G Star is another point, theoretically thousands should have been issued to Indian and Pakistani Troops, but only one named F&G Star is known. Equally the Pacific & North Africa clasps should be common place, but they rarely ever seen. Also naming of medals to Muslim soldiers is virtually unseen, yet those of the 3rd Bn JATs got their GSMs named.

I prefer to call it my Wife , she decided it was a good time to start tidying the desk whilst engaging in conversation .

I had meant to say "BRONZE version apart from RoP." I got distracted.

I'd agree, must be missing the yop bar. I know some have made reverence to single campaign stars, and rightly pointed out the qualification. Oddly, however, the most common instances I've seen of a Burma medal without 1939-45 Star is to Muslim members of the Battalion of the 10 Baluch Regt who were Captured in Singapore. I have varified two to known POWs, and the medals are swing mounted as worn, so I believe the lack of the 1939-45 star must have come down to an administration error.

A very nicely mounted group Gordon. You've raised an interesting point, namely inheritance. I know. When I used to live in Nottinham I got a family group of Sutlej & Punjab and Punjan & Mutiny to brothers, the seller knew the latter was his great, great grandfathers, but given they were his grandmother's family didn't care. I presume this must be one of the most common reason why people part with medals, even if they have been in the family a long while.

YES, the China 1900 medal was awarded in Bronze to REGIMENTAL FOLLOWERS in the Indian Army, and no, CLASPs were not awarded for the BRONZE version. What is the naming on the Bronze Medal, one was sold at DNW late last week. They are not rare, however due to the hard life they had they are usually battered, and should you see one in a pair expect to pay a premium.

The majority of unnamed Victory Medals probably come from Indian State Forces, and a limited number of Indian Army Regiments (as yet unidentified due to lack of data). I would treat BWMs entirely differently, they are not encountered at all as frequently, and I have seen no pattern myself for their issue. Any trio with an unnamed BWM is highly strange. It suggests that the two bronze medals were sold by a villager, who kept the BWM given it's silver content. A dealer would have subsequently added the unnamed BWM to complete it. Given the number of 'bronze' pairs appearing I would be highly sceptical of any similar 'trios'. If one does want to acquire one which has an unnamed BWM do so based on where the unit served to qualify for the Star, and haggle hard on the price. I might add that 'bronze' pairs are lucky to have survived, and not been turned into a copper pot, but the BWM (even when unnamed) should be considered as a gap filler until sufficent regimental data suggests otherwise.

Yes, the good news as Ed says is that dealers in India are starting to realise that trios are worth something and so you are starting to see more of them. Quite a few still come with unnamed Victory Medals, as I believe one of these listed here mat do (I was offered them a few weeks before) but if the star survived with the BWM you can almost be sure the Victory was issued unnamed.

When I saw the BEM group in Delhi last year I went through the paper work, whilst the Commanders Commendations are there the MID and BEM certificates were not. At least from memory. I couldn't help but feel this was a damn shame. I was tempted to buy it myself, but left it and the 17th Dogras MC group.

As Edji says, they are very common in Mombai. So common that most Bizzars will have a few PoW Visit Medals. I believe the most probable explanation for why the medal is so common is because it was presented to School Children, hence it being made of Bronze / Copper.

This is from the Mint book, I assume that the Campaign in Gujerat and the Campaign in Carnatic refers to the Deccan Medal, although the individual auditing the dies seemed to be unaware of this. The Moghur Mutiny is not to be found in this list, however there are other records that sanction it's production, but unlike the Deccan and all medals that followed, there are no minutes relating to the cost of it's production, the final design, or where it was struck. List of Medals awarded to the Indian Army Location Of Die Medal Awarded Date ? Battle of Plassey 23rd June 1757 ? Battle of Buscar 23 Oct, 1764 ? Battle of Korah 10 June 1776 ? Campaign in Gujerat 1781 - 1784 Calcutta Mint Campaign in Carnatic 1781 - 1784 Calcutta Mint Campaign in Mysore 1790 - 1793 Calcutta Mint Capture of Seringaputnam 4 May 1794 Calcutta Mint Expedition to Egypt 1801 Calcutta Mint Expedition to Ceylon 1795 - 1796 Calcutta Mint Exped. to Isle of France 1810 Calcutta Mint The War in Nepal 1814 - 1816 Wyron The War in Burmah 1825/26 Calcutta Mint Storming of Ghuznee 1839 Wyron Army of India 1799 - 1826 Wyron Jelalabad April 42 Wyron China War 1842 Wyron Candahar & Scinde 1842 / 1843 I believe the medals to Plassey, Buscar, and Korah may refer to gold medals produced for individual Officers, and as such they were of limited manufacture. This is highly subjective, and based upon information relating to other such awards. One detractor from this theory is that the above list does not include the medals that were produced for the Vellore Mutiny, which the Mint Book and Directors Correspondence both refer to. The list is also of interest given that it notes Wyron had the die for Jelalabad. Presumably they are refering to the 2nd Type, and not the original. MCMH As I said Ed, it isn't a problem. It was my photo, I still have it on the hard drive and I copied you and Sushil in on the same email. Nobody more sorry than me that it wasn't the Moghur Medal. I haven't told the National Army Museum yet !! I am the other M, i.e. Mark H ( sorry if all the initials make me sound like Mike! Don't want to use my surname, too easy to google )

Note: These dates should read 1766. 1776 was a white mutiny but occured on another continent.

No problem Edji. I was refering to the Monghyr Medal, 1766. There was a medal produced by the Mint in Calcutta, along with Pondercherry &co, however in the 1870s the dies for it, and the other two medals that the Mint had produced prior to the Deccan Medal, were unaccounted for. The Monghyr Medal displayed by Ed was aquired by me, for an undisclosed sum from a very well known auction house owner. There are only three known examples in private collections, although one of these has disappeared, believed stolen. I have every one of the early HEIC medals, all are first strikings, and as soon as I had it in my hands I knew it wasn't right. I had been talking about HEIC medals with John Hayward whilst he was preparing Battles & medals. He said he had seen two of these medals when he had been with Spinks in the 60s (the medal that disappeared was almost certainly one of these), and like me, based on the construction and production of the medal (poor finishing, tool marks, very light and struck on a very thin flan) he had had grave doubts about the medal. I again went through the records of the Indian Mint books to see if there was a description, but could find none, and then I had a brain wave and did something that Mayo couldn't do - I googled (see footnote) the latin inscription 'Non Nisi Digo'. Sure enough, amonst several hundred returns, was a website for the Masonic Lodge, "The Lodge of the Palmen". http://www.minerva-zu-den-drei-palmen.de/index.php Their logo, you will note, is the same as the design of the medal Mayo thought was the Monghyr Medal. The Grand Master of the Lodge is a direct descendent of the founder, and the society was founded in 1776 by the amalgamation of three other lodges (hence the palmtrees, and name of the lodge). The design of the lodge's logo dates to 1776 and is full of masonic meaning. Shortly after it's formation the founding members had a medal struck to commemorate the creation of the lodge (the in thing at the time, why do very few society's have medals oday?), and less than 30 original medals are known to exist. The Grand Master told me that they commanded very high prices amongst members, but my heart sank when he told me in a hushed reverenced tone that 'it is worth many hundreds of Euros mein herr'. I'd just managed to knock two naughts off of what I had paid for it!! And before you ask, the Grand Master knows a lot about their medals but could tell me nothing of the grail ! Rgds, MCMH 1 - I use the vanacular. Google was no help, and I found the site using Yahoo). (information and photo MCMH's copyright )

Edji, you have not quoted the source of the photo, or your information. I'm reaching for the phone, what is your Lawyer's number I would be happy to share the doubts with the list, but if anyone has any questions I'll only direct you to the Grand Master of the Lodge in Germany (yes the Maisons - conspiracy theorists would love this) who produced the medal. It is apparently very rare, but not sadly the medal Mayo's friends purported it to be.