Tim B

Very cool! Were these actual unit badges or post-war commemorative pieces? How big are the ones you are showing? I have one with a pinback that is approximately 1 1/2" diameter and appears to be of an earlier tombak-like material. Understand there were mini's as well. Tim

Okay, I'll stop for now. I do have more PICS and of course more questions, but want to hold off until I hear from some of the more knowledgeable TWM collectors here. I will also be posting this one over at WAF (Imperial) in case someone sees it over there. I'll link them later. Thanks for any help. I like this one, but there are things that I need to have answered. Cheers! Tim

Here's a closeup of the tugrha and surrounding area. Note the holes; Is it possible that this might be another later example made by manufacturer AWS? With this style pin on the reverse, I would be thinking post WW1, perhaps mid-late 30's or even early 40's. Also note the diamond shape base design under the red enamel. This appears pretty uniform and symmetrical throughout. One question I have on the enamel is there appears to be small bubbles in the enamel, some very miniscule and a few larger ones here and there. These are not visible to the naked eye (not mine anymore anyways), but are noticable under a 10X loop. Is this to be expected? My BB&Co. does not have these. I also see a couple of pin marks in the enamel near the right side of the center. Last note; you can see the holes where the center attachments were riveted. Appears these holes were drilled out. Top of the tugrha and under the date are most notable in this PIC.

Another shot of the side showing the extreme vault. Has a really nice look to it vaulted like this! I tried but could not capture the edge striations in this PIC, but there are very fine uniform lines along the edges.

Here's a PIC of the catch and hinge style. You can also get a feel for the vault. Some items I note: - The catch, hinge and pin are of considerably lighter colored metal compared to the base metal of the star and crescent. Almost has an aluminum look to it, including the hinge pin. I would even say the rivets and thus the front attachments appear to be made of this material as well. Not sure what to think of the patina then. - There are signs of this lighter color in the recesses of the base metal noted mainly around the hinge area. I understand this is more common on the later produced pieces (30's era) and not so much on the earlier ones, but with so many rivets, I am confused on a possible manufacturing timeline. - The rivet holes are rather rough around the edges.

This one is of 7-rivet construction.

The dimensions are as follows: Weight: 22.8 grams Width of the star tips: 55.85 mm (Keep in mind this one is really vaulted) Thickness of the Star arms are 1.8 - 1.9 mm thick I measured the hinge at the bottom of the base (widest part): 10.84 mm The crescent measured just under the star arms: 28.72 mm wide.

Okay, let's try this one again...hopefully with better results this time. After returning the last TWM, I was given an opportunity by the dealer to get a refund or, behind door number 2... Please let me know what you think. Tim

Nice score Gordon! Yes, that was a concern when asking around on this one if it really was or just one of the other makers with a L/15 stamp applied. Congrats! Beautiful badge Tim

Well, don't know why I bother, but to close this one out. The star is on it's way back to the dealer. Prior to sending it, I took it back out and took one more PIC after closely examing it. Honestly, overall, the star was much thinner than the BB&Co. piece (only two I have in hand to compare) but the edge striations were very similar and some of those striations were above that die line as well as below it, in areas that would have been impossible to have remain if a file had been used and too fine to be casting lines. I will provide this last PIC to show an area where either a dirty die or cast fill left remains, but it is the only area IMO that alludes to casting and honestly, I have seen this sort of "fill" on original Weimar era pieces as well. So..? Who cares now. Good luck! Tim

Hi Terry, Looks nice! The first Star I got was the BB&Co. which is the most common I understand. Now we need to find the others. Here's mine, nice quality piece IMO. Tim

Cmon guys! I took the time to take additional PICS showing what I thought proves this is not a cast piece and held the piece back from the post for a couple of days and now, no inputs?? What is the opinion now? Has it changed, or is the concensus still that this is a current fake Tim I guess Heiko Gruskat is unavailable for comment on the piece he showed several posts back??

A little bit different angle. These striations are pretty much all around, but this edge and a couple more are more pronounced than the others. Tim

Alright, I took a couple PICS of the edge showing "what I think" is evidence of die stamping. There is a small ridge, but I don't think its a casting line, but instead the edge where the die is tapered so that the piece comes out of the die easier when stamped. I really need honest opinions/answers here, so no sugar coating or half guessing please. I can lose this piece and prefer to on the side of caution, but lets really try to be accurate if we can. The item is boxed up now and ready to go to the post; if there's a chance, I need to know before it goes and I would like to mail it out today if possible. I meant to add; the weight on this one is 17.0 grams. I didn't bother to measure the dimensions. Thank you, Tim PICS are best I can do, sorry.

Well guys, I already told the dealer that its coming back. We shouldn't condemn pieces that we don't know for sure on and in the future, just say we don't know, instead of jumping on the bandwagon. I will try to take one more PIC of the star edges, but IMO, this is not a cast. It shows clear edge striations indicating it was die stamped. The reverse patina concerns me, but I have seen these type washes on original WWII pieces, so I just don't know. I really wanted to hear from Heiko that had one in his group, but until now, nothing. So, for the price paid I will not just hold on to it when I can use the money to get something else that I am 100% sure on. Thanks anyway, Tim

Josef, Not at all my friend! Yes, it was really dissapointing to find this out as I really like the award and have just started to collect these. I am very happy with the BB&Co. piece and thought this one was of inferior workmanship, but in really great shape. Honestly, the first impression I had when looking at the piece was F&$K!!! Is this real or not and the finish on the back concerned me. Then I thought maybe it was a 1930's manufactured issue. Either way, I would rather hear the truth and get a fake out of my collection instead of trying to pass it on as original down the road. Now we can add another fake to the archives! Thanks again everybody! Until next time. Oh, the dealer was very shocked, apologetic and will of course offer me a full refund or credit for something else if desired, no questions! Cheers! Tim

Hi guys, Wow! I am dismayed by this news. I looked over past threads and noted one in the group by member Heiko that shown several pieces and was pretty sure this one matched one of his. Nothing was said about it being fake then and it's been sometime ago, so I know he didn't just get his piece recently. I didn't buy this one off ebay, but through a fairly respected dealer. I understand that don't really mean anything, but... In fact, I got the BB&Co. off ebay!! If Heiko is available, can you compare your Star to mine and add your thoughts? Not good news, but thanks ; maybe I can get my money back. Tim

Slightly smaller than the BB&Co. award. Tim

Reverse. Has a nice vault to it. I note that the star tips appear slightly flatter on the tops of the balls, but it appears to be made that way and not from hand vaulting. Tim

I have only seen one other of this particular style shown in an old thread by Heiko. Any clue to the maker of this piece? One piece enamel. Note the center bottom lettering. Thanks! Tim

Hi Scott, Had to look to where that comment came from. Yes, all LGCB's were zinc, apparently there was a slightly better quality zinc item that R.K. put out (some think the so-called feinzinc). I notice the R.K. pieces with the pinched rivets seem to be just a little bit better in details and overall quality. When first looking at some of these, they almost resemble buntmetal. I had one of the later ones with the Muk5 style catch and larger round rivets. The quality was still nice, just not as nice as the earlier ones. Hope that answers your question. Tim

Hi John! Thanks for the reply and great examples here. I do see some of the shear marks on my two badges as well; what started me wondering is the grooves shown in the PICS actually appear to be part of the badge and not applied afterward (i/e: filing). I could be wrong, but they just don't look like file marks and are too perfect IMO. One of the "thoughts" I proposed over at WAF was, could they have incorporated these grooves to possibly aid in the removal process when the badge was taken out of the die? The lightning bolt is pretty thin and fragile when compared to other badges that have a more solid type design. Not sure how much stress would be on the center lightning bolt, but by incorporating grooves along the edges, would it effectively reduce the surface area enough to keep the bolt from cracking or separating as the badge got ejected from the die. I just don't know enough about the die forging/casting/stamping processes. I assume that most of these marks were filed down during finishing work or perhaps some just didn't remain as apparent when the badge was ejected. Only guessing here. I do really like the badge! It has a real good look/feel to it and compares almost identical to the other one with the obvious exceptions of the eagle and hardware differences. Thanks again! Tim

It's just another Madoff scam to hide his (our) $50Billion. Actually gold was used for it's resiliency over time.

The grooves may not be as pronounced as those above. Here's the other shield example. Tim

Okay, I probably should have started a new thread instead of tying it to this old one, but let's try another angle. Of those that have LGCB's, and especially ones that are made by this same maker, can you check your badges closely for any diagonal grooves along the edges of the lightning bolt? Of the two badges I have, I can see these grooves in varying degrees of visibility. I'm curious to see if they all had them or not. Thanks! Oh, I am running a concurrent thread on this over at WAF as well if interested. Tim