JapanX

Very interesting Richard! Actually I was thinking about your yesterday question (if Richard LaTonder asked such strange question ("strange" because of course he knows everything about this order ) that's for reason ). As I said earlier I don't have any photos, regulations or published sources on this order. So my point of view on this order may be a traditionalist point of view (created by article in OMSA journal??? The exact text of which, by the way, I've never seen as well - only heard about it from people who knew people why read it ). I think this confusion (Wu Pei-fu? Chang tso-lin? Some other warlord?) was created by typical copycat practice of creating orders in warlord China. Different warlords (provinces) created orders with practically the same design. This (its my conjunction) in turn was a consequence of very few manufacturers available at that time which were too lazy (too economically constrained?) to develop absolutely new designs. I am sure that you remember (because I believe it was you who did great research of them in Harry Mohler Collection Hoover back in Stanford University ) such examples as Heilongjiang warlord Wu Junsheng Medal, Shantung province naval merit medal - they have exactly the same size, ribbon and design as we observe in case of "golden lion" order - only central tablets are different). I was thinking about creating a different thread devoted to this "copycat" practice when I saw your new post But of course copycat or no copycat - we don't have any hard evidence for attributing this rare order with too hieroglyph on obverse "Extreme bravery". I will look into this "golden lion", but I think my chances for success are pretty low. Regards, Nick

Great color images! Thanks for posting them! Cheers, Nick

Of course I was happy, cause I found a really nice source of info - no doubt about it And of course I was a little bit confused why you didn't mentioned it and used only small pieces of info. Now it's clear why. And of course you can refer to yourself any which way you like it James/Christopher/?. I just don't understand why you are beside yourself with rage? You should really control you temper and choose your words more carefully. And I will help you with this task by saying adieu!

I really don't know James. It's not really a question of intelligence - it's a question of how many names one person actually have. How do you think I can figure out who you actually are? Especially if you have a habit to refer to yourself in the third person. Post # 6 in http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/30705-please-id-persian-order/

Remember this Babar? Well I just found the real source of James "background". Here it is http://web.archive.org/web/20071102041611/http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Persia/Orders/persia-orders.htm Even the list of literature is the same (actually it is exactly the same!) All posts of James with information about this order and its variations were created by simple operation "choose-copy-paste". Even the color of these fragments are slightly different from ordinary typing color. Hope you (and all our colleagues) will found this great source interesting. It was created by Christopher Buyers in 2002 - 2007. Regards, Nick

Unfortunately I don't know any other published references. And you are right about these auction houses... Sometimes they don't even indicate that the ribbon is wrong. Great news about tracking down this article Cheers, Nick

You never know with these warlords And I am very interested in attachment design. Thanks, Nick

Hi Richard Cool breast star!!! Thanks for posting this rare beaty! Any hope for photo of reverse? I believe that the correct english name for this order (!) will be Order for Extremely Bravery. It was created and issued by Zhang Zuolin (a.k.a Zhāng Zuòlín, a.k.a. Chang Tso-lin, a.k.a (among his friends and partners in crime) "Stunted") government of Manchuria during 20s. More info about this warlord of Manchuria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Zuolin. It was the main (and only?) military decoration during his reign. Usually you see 3rd class orders (71mm~63mm) on red-yellow-blue-white-black (from left to right) ribbons. But breast star is something completely different!!! Real rarity in amazing condition!!! Best regards, Nick

Yep, exactly like in post #12, but how different the lion appearance!!! Simply amazing. Every lion and sun order is unique. And we know the first time coordinate for this maker Cheers, Nick

Reverse

Obverse

Nice Babar! Thanks for showing this!!! Got something nice and interesting too Order of Lion and Sun, 5th class awarded to french captain A.Speltz from 85th Regt of Infantry 20th April 1874. Unfortunately I don`t have a photo of the document (actually it is a certificate authorisation to wear this order issued by the Chancellery of the Legion D’Honneur on vellum with a coloured painting of the order). But I have these nice pictures of the order Nice looking makers mark! Cheers mates, Nick

Well I don't have any theory at all James. All I've got is yours information regarding different color ribbons for different classes of Lion and Sun orders. From 1872 firman. Regarding this order arts&science - I observe two color of ribbons - red and green. And both ribbons look authentic to me. You are thinking that every green ribbon on this order is a replacement (talking about pet theories ) and it's perfectly ok with me now, after all your weighty arguments. "Setting you up"?! I am sorry if you've got that feeling from our discussion. I have no intention to "set you up" When I asked you about photos I mean any order (original lion and sun or arts order). I don't have such photos (and regulation for this art&science order). So naturally I asked you if you have ones. I am afraid nothing is "perfectly obvious" or "pretty clear" with these orders. All the best, Nick

Yes, this disaster was the real reason for creation of this badge. Nice one Gavin! Cheers, Nick

Yep, we certainly should do some more digging into this interesting badge Cheers, Nick

Yes, I think you are right. As we remember - same story with central tablets quality... What I really like to see is a document from 1810-1860 period. I wonder if there were documents for earlier awards (why not? I think they should be somewhere...). Thanks mate, Nick

Damn right! Or they just really think these are the real diamonds :lol:

I guess these were the lazy ones - they either had idea (unlike me ) or they just couldn't care less Then, from my personal experience "dealing with dealers", we should observe red and multicolor ribbons all over the market. It's not only the color that matters, it's the ribbon material, the size, the clasp or the tie, etc... Not to mention that some color shades are quite frequent and they are green one and they hold standing lions... And then please take a look at post #13... Looks like these ribbons came from the same manufacturer (as well as orders). But of course there is a probability that all this ribbons are replacements. I just couldn't imagine such hard-working dealers And I just don't understand why you are so confident, that ALL these ribbons are indeed replacements James... Well, this last question was a rhetorical one James Cheers, Nick P.S. Could you please post photos of the orders with standing lions on multicolor ribbons, because I'd really like to see them (for a change!)

Markus, back in Russia they call it "именник". Maker who marked his pieces with this one (NB) is not known. At least we know that this piece was made before 1908 Cheers, nick

Nice piece - terrible price Too high for "glass", way too low for jewels...

But instead of these beauties we get pure bureaucratic paper Cheers, Nick

Or this one from 1848.

1779

Tell you the truth I would prefer more picturesque firmān as document for Lion and Sun order. For example like this one from 1779.

The document content is quite standard. The usual introduction part (the signature and sigillum of the Shah). In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful Then reasons for decoration … the Shah has ruled that the Order (Medal) of the Lion and Sun be awarded to … And date Ramadan year …" Looks like this type of document was in use since (at least) late 1880s.