Chuck In Oregon

I have never been sure of what role the Local Troops performed. I suspect they may have been "on call", something like our Reserves or National Guard, but I have never read anything authoritative about them.

This is my example of an officer's version of the 100-Year Jubilee Badge of Local Troops. On this version you can see the red enamel and that the wreath and crown portion is silver-plated bronze. I can see traces of gilt on the eagle, so it was once golden, making this a very striking badge, indeed. The letters MB appear to be solid gold. This badge has no proof or hallmarks.

Chuck

What a terrific piece. One of the nicest I have ever seen, that's for sure.

Two questions, though. What identifies this as a St. Pete badge and what name are you looking for? Is it the meaning of the initials?

Congratulations on finding such a superb piece. I assure you, I have never been offered such a treasure.

Chuck

I found Chucks badge in my "The badges of Russa" book

Blue cross society as chuck states.

Here are specs. of presention.

George

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George, thank you for that very interesting response. I'm going to copy that page and put it in with my references. Obviously, I need to buy that book. Do you know where I can get it? I have found a book dealer in Poland from whom I intend to order some books on awards and uniforms. If he works out OK, I'll let everyone know.

That picture shows an all-silver badge except for the gold helmet. Mine has a silver cross but the rest of the parts are gold. If there were only two variants, then by process of elimination mine must be what Avers calls the gold variant. Now that is the kind of friendly help that will make this forum useful and help it/us to grow.

Chuck

MY Gosh Chuck,

Send them to me..

I'll get them displayed

George

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Yes, it's disgraceful, I admit it. I have 5-6 uniforms or tunics, at least one of which is all but unknown in the west (OKA), and I don't display any of them. As for shaskas and swords, I've got 6-8 of them just lying around or standing in corners, including the presentation example to an officer in the Dagestani Irregular Cavalry who later became a famous White leader. Don't hate me.

What I really need to do is concentrate on my own areas of particular interest and trade or sell the rest. One of these days ...

Chuck

Avers 3 shows this as item 538 on page 102, and dates it 1897. It merely calls it The Society of the Blue Cross and lists it under "Fire Fighting Badges". It shows two varities, a gold version and a silver-and-gold version. Mine must be the latter.

An 1870 example of this badge is shown in Avers 3, page 87, item 432. Avers lists both a silver and a bronze variety.

I believe mine may be a later variation. Either that, or my maker had a finer touch. Note, for instance, the difference in the edges of the leaves versus that in Avers.

It has three parts. The wreath and ribbon are one part and that part is both proofed silver and hallmarked. The hallmark is the cyrillic letters for FG, in a neat block form. That may be Fedor Grigorovich Gorbunov, who was a silver master in the period 1895 - 1908. I'm going to guess that the letters are gilted silver. The eagle appears, to my untrained eye, to be silver-plated bronze, as does the screwback. The plate is a dipped bronze. The latter three items are not marked at all.

Chuck

You know, White Russian wouldn't be out of the question. Most Georgians believe that Georgia, not the Crimea, was the last major stronghold of White Russian resistance. We know that there was significant White resistance in the Northern Caucasus until at least 1923, even though Tbilisi itself fell in 1921. In fact, I have an attributed presentation shaska related to that resistance. Even though they are unrelated, I should probably display the uniform and that shaska together. As it is now, I don't display either.

Chuck

It took me a minute to recognize the stylized bridge, but I'd say they mostly stayed with the theme. Curious that they substituted the globe for the blue sky in the earlier badges. I wonder what the significance of the ribbon is or if it has any meaning besides not clashing with the award.

Chuck

Hello,

did i get that right, that these Firemens societys were non-official associations for Firemen? Sorry for the weird question, but i wonder if i got the right translation. The german word would be "Verein" then.

Oh and beautiful badges

Thanks in advance

best,

Gerd

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Good question, Gerd. In the absence of a crown, I sort of assumed that mine was a private society, to the extent such a thing existed. As opposed to, say, the Imperial Society of the Red Cross, with its emperor's crown on everything, proclaiming an official sanction and endorsement. Or, more to the point, as opposed to George's firemen's society badges.

Chuck

WOW a Generals at that...

Did it come complete with decorations?

I'm not sure is there a chevron on the rt. sleeve?

I thought Chevrons were only worn after the revolution.?

Great

George

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This is exactly the way it came out of the closet, nothing added or taken off, and it is still on the same hanger.

I know next to nothing about uniforms or uniform regulations. In fact, I hope to learn something from people like you about this one. Yes, that is a chevron, and I don't know anything about that, either.

I don't offer this as proof of anything, just as something that might stimulate some enlightening comments and conversation.

Chuck

EXCELLENT topic.

Here is the badge of the Blue Cross Firemen's Society. Well, I'm pretty sure that was the name of the society. This is my only Imperial fireman's badge.

The cross itself is silver, and proofed. The tools, anchor and helmet are solid gold, and the anchor is proofed. The screwback is silver and proofed. I can find no hallmark anywhere.

I really like this forum so far. There is a lot to be learned here and I value that very highly. And the company seems first rate as well.

Enjoy.

Chuck

<<Did the Tsarist forces EVER wear ribbon bars? I thought they wore full size or nothing. >>

<<I do not think Tsarist russia wore ribbon bars. They are 1 inch across each.>>

Will these pictures shed any light on this topic?

I am not a uniform guy. They have always been too bulky to pack right to bring home and they take up too much room in the closet I store my few old uniforms in.

However ... When I was asked last year, would I like to see an old uniform, I almost just said no. Then I thought, why not? I almost fell over when these old people pulled this one out of their closet at home. It had been hanging in one or another of their closets since the revolution, I think. There was really no thinking involved when they asked me if this was something I might like to buy. I even brought home the 19th century wooden clothes hanger it was hung on.

Chuck

Great order.. I cant wait till I find one I can afford!

George

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If my darlin' wife had been within, say, 5,000 miles, I probably wouldn't have bought this one. Well, couldn't have with two broken arms and bleeding from the ears, I suppose. But she wasn't and I can't be trusted with money around good collectibles, so here it is. I don't regret it, mind you, but it was costly in more ways than one. She really doesn't see the humor when I say "It's only money."

Chuck

This is my only Order of St. George. It is gold and marked only on the ring. Even with a 10x glass I can't read the mark. This award comes from the Turkish War. I acquired a few other related items from this officer's family and I'll post them one of these days.

Chuck

I knew I had this one around somewhere. I just couldn't find it yesterday. This is also a physician's badge, but much different than my/our other variant. As you can see from the third image, this one is much smaller. I understand that it is quite scarce, as well.

The construction of this badge is interesting. Once again, the eagle appears to be a stock piece, merely silver-plated brass. However, the medical insignia itself is solid silver. The outer leaves also appear to be silver, and individually made and attached as well. The medical insignia is 84 proofed and hallmarked DK. As you likely know, DK is Dmitri Kuchkin, one of the leading silver masters of his time. The screwplate also bears his hallmark but it is not proofed.

You beat me to it with this badge. Here's mine. The badge is silver plated and the snakes are gilted.

You can read the name of the doctor on the plate. I bought his very interesting group from his family a couple of years ago. Recently they called up said they had found his physician's badge and did I want it? No question about that, and now it is in my collection and this is it. I'll post the whole group later on. I suspect it will be well received.

Chuck

No photos, this is an orphan piece.

I do have a cross-over Imperial-Red Army aviation group with a couple of badges, a photo and some documents. I'll get around to posting it one of these days.

Chuck

Nice piece. The Solid Gold badges are sooooo hard to find.

My books show it as the 13 th Erivan Life-Grenadier Regiment of His Majesty..

George

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Yes, that is undoubtedly correct and it also makes sense given what little I know of this badge and that unit. It is definitely from the Caucasus. Thank you.

I am very interested in what book you are referring to. Which book is it and do you know where I can find it? We should probably have a separate thread on what references we use and where they are available. I think that most collectors buy lots of reference books. Mine are so inadequate. I would sure like to buy some new ones. There is always more to learn.

BTW, what is your source for those nifty acrylic medal displays. I just googled for them but haven't yet come across the exact ones that you have.

Chuck

This is certainly one of my better badges. It is the 250-Year badge of the 13th Grenadier Regiment. It is solid gold, proofed and hallmarked. It weighs 23.52 grams, without the screwback. The screwback is solid silver, also proofed and hallmarked.

Chuck

Attributed jetons are an interesting theme to collect. I have only a few and I would like to acquire more. And not many collectors can boast of one attributed to a prince. Yours is very striking. Was he also a relative? Mine are much more plebian.

Chuck

That is a very nice group, well presented, and it honors your ancestors well. Would you consider writing up what you know about the recipient of those badges? I know that I would be interested in learning about him or them.

Chuck

Here my example. Has enamel damage, I fixed up a bit..

Can stand the design, its the emblem of Alexandrinsky Orphans Institute.

Pelican feeding nestlings.

George

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You mean it really IS a pelican? Well, I'll be darned. If it's the symbol of an orphanage, that makes it a little more meaningful, but why tie it into a military school?

As a point of possible interest, my wife and I operate a small American charity that supports a couple of children's homes in Georgia. Personally, I'd rather not have a symbol than have that one.

Chuck

Good Morning Pete

First, thank you for the web site reference. I have several in my "Favorites" folder but I didn't have that one.

I have one numbered silver St. George Cross with absolutely no provenance. It came from another collector. I have a gold unnumbered example with a good provenance as told by the family from whom I bought it. Of course, anyone can make up a story, but I tend to believe the family histories when I hear them in the first person.

I also have a group that includes an un-numbered gold example from a titled Georgian family who stated that the recipient definitely did purchase that example. Yet, I have a soldier's committee example with ribbon and leaves, awarded to a young officer, that is numbered.

I don't quite know what to make of all this. My limited experience is that there were more unnumbered examples than I might previously have thought. I know that owing an example does not imply knowledge of any sort, and I claim none. I have stopped asking questions of the "Why would they ... " nature, because I simply have too many of them.

Thank you for your thought-provoking response.

Chuck

Very interesting to see an miniature of long service service St. George. Since the awarding ceased in 1855, that must be quite early piece. Any idea when miniatures in general started to show up?

Pete

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I didn't know that the St. George frachnik might be that old, nor do I know anything about them in general. In four years of searching in Georgia, I only found the two miniatures I have already posted.

I am looking for the kind of reference books that might include research and history of that nature. Most of my books are what a friend calls "numismatic", merely identifying (at best) what I have, with no history. They are OK for what they are, but I am a curious fellow and I always want to know more about the history, requirements, numbers issued, variations, dates and so on.

Chuck

This is one of my favorite badges.

The badge and plate are identically proofed and hallmarked, suggesting to me that the plate is original to the badge. The screwback is merely proofed. They are all solid silver with some kind of coating or dip, something like the blueing you see on gunmetal, but a little thicker. Then the black color was rubbed off of the high points to give a very dramatic effect to the wings and swords and the telescope.

The eagle is solid gold. The right leg, as you are looking at the badge, fell off. The family actually had it in a little bag. A Georgian friend said "I can re-attach that leg, no problem." I, trusting fool that I am, said "Sure, go ahead." Bad, bad idea. He used a soldering iron (forgive me) and, of course, melted the delicate little leg into a tiny blob of gold. Oh well, live and learn, but you would think I'd know better at my age. At any age, really.

There. Ten threads promised and ten delivered. More to follow. Are there any Imperial collectors out there besides George and me? George, you've got some terrific things. I'm envious.

I really like early Imperial and Soviet aviation and I will trade for good pieces for good pieces.

Chuck