Mervyn Mitton

Graham - you're probably right, but wouldn't it be good if it did turn out to be English. Let's see what others suggest.

Graham - I agree with you on the type of badges we are showing not being used then - however,there has to be a possibility of a naive UK style - possibly made by a village seamstress from a picture and for a local use i.e. gamekeeper, estate gatekeeper etc.. I also agree with you that a number of European crowns had a similarity when in outline - but, the sequins and little uprights are very close to the Edward Crown. Unless Uwe can remember where he bought it, or, someone knows of it's original purpose, then we may never be sure ? I brought it to attention because it reminded me, very strongly, of some of the Crowns on Georgian truncheons and they cover a long period (1714 - 1830)

Uwe - thankyou for the reverse - it needed to be seen. The board and stitching have nothing to do with the badge - added to make a display item. I find the khaki cloth confusing - has a very distinctive thread pattern - not what I would expect to see on a khaki tunic. Are we perhaps looking at something which is not military - say, perhaps an early gamekeeper on a big estate ? I still think the Crown has a similarity to the pre-1830 style - but who knows. Hopefully someone else will look at it and make an instant identification - as Coldstream says - Leigh may have an idea ?

SUCCESS ! Checked Google and it turns out it is part of a set of 40 issued either as singles or, as a set. Silver singles were one guinea (£1/1/-) They date from 1820 and yours is numbered 16 in the set. www.btinternet.com/~malcbenn/mudie.htm

Norman - I don't recall even seeing one. However, The Johannesburg War Museum are supplied with copies of all SA medals and should be able to send you pictures. The only member I can think of, who could possibly have an example is Will - at SABrigade. (I may not have got his URL correct - look him up and IM) sabrigade

Douglas - I wouldn't think as early as you suggest - after all, that would make it during the reign of Henry 8th - and that is very early. I would have thought more likely to be 18th. Century (1700's) and for a ship - but it really needs an antique gun expert - such as The Royal Armouries at Leeds to give an opinion. From the photos it doesn't appear to be very big - possibly a 4 pounder or, 6 lbs.. Perhaps for a merchant ship - Naval ones often had the Royal initials (cypher) or, coat-of-arms. The head around the 'touch hole' - where the priming powder was put and which ignited the main charge - is of Medusa. The Greek horror whose hair was of snakes and who could turn people into stone if they looked into her eyes (one of the tasks of Hercules was to kill her ) - so a good subject for the gun. I suggest you write out the wording - I couldn't read it clearly and send it with the photos to : THE ROYAL ARMOURIES LEEDS. U.K. I'm sure the post office will find them - or, look on Google for their email and forward. Please let us know what you find out , but, hopefully a member with more knowledge will be be able to add.

Jonathan - a nice clean medallion. Any number of Associations ( military, civilian) or, even the King, could have had this struck to commemorate the Battle. Medallions can be traced back hundreds of years and far pre-date suspended medals - although they are often pierced to hang from a neck ribbon. The Medal Year Book shows a good selection of famous ones - but there are specialist books and sites. I am always surprised that even examples from Charles Ist - or, earlier, seem to only sell in the low hundreds. They were often struck in the three different forms - Gold, silver, bronze - and issued according to the rank of the person. Look for the initals of the sculptor - sometimes they are very important artists. Hopefully, other members can add to this. Just a postscript. The figure is NIKE or, Winged Victory - one of the minor Greek Goddesses. She is taking the wreath of Victory from the French Eagle and is about to give it to the British Lion. Very symbolic. Interestingly Nike sportswear take their name from Her and their famous 'tick' is from when her arm is raised holding the wreath.

Paul - no. 22. I always thought this backing colour was for the Hussars. No. 23. A most interesting item that requires close examination. The backing material may be a clue, however, the shape of the crown is typical of the Georgian period (pre 1830). Even should it prove to be later, the simplistic design is unusual.

Stuart - good that you brought these back - I thought they were beautiful examples and in such lovely condition. I had wondered about the pristine condition of the badges - however, they are in keeping with the helmets - perhaps they were just stored away somewhere ? How long have you had them Jamie ? Should you ever think of parting with them, I'll 'fight' Stuart to see who can make an offer.....

I agree with Paul - this has developed into an interesting thread with all of the variations. Frank's post on Canadian versions showed great differences from their U.K. counter parts and it was nice to see the types. The Rhodesian metal ones are similar to the South African - the impressions never seem so clear. We watched this week a series on Monarchy - The Royal Family at Work - they showed the Guards being trained to fire a Feu de Joie. There were several different levels of Sgt. Majors present - including the Garrison Sgt. Maj.. He was wearing a small bullion - obviously for undress - but many of those shown here can be seen. I found the programme very well presented. As you say - keep the subject alive - where are our Australian and New Zealand friends ?

This is a take-off on November 5th. - celebrated in the U.K. with fireworks. It commemorates the event in 1605 when Guy Fawkes tried to blow-up Parliament.

The following prints are from 1829 and show the hostility to the Metropolitan Police in 1829. These would have been sold on the streets, as with the above one.

Garth - one of the more contentious subjects is which has the honour of being the oldest regiment. Also to be considered is Prince Alfred's Guard - who also make claim. Many regiments - when they are amalgamated assume the Battle Honours of the previous units - and Natal Mounted Rifles are taking the date of formation of the oldest unit as their start date. There are several subjects I try to avoid - and Regimental history is one of them - although in this case I tend to agree with N.M.R. Brabant's Horse had two Regiments - the First had a strength of 500 men and the Second - 550 men.

Thankyou everyone - has been very interesting following the lines of research and conjecture. I am not disappointed that it is o/r's - we must remember they greatly outnumber the officers.

Great, Mike - lovely old examples and thank you for the information. Your background with R.H.A. would make such interesting posts - you see them on parade, but never know the full story of all the preparations and work. I think we would all enjoy hearing from you on this subject - and, some different photos ? Mervyn

Norman - you should join - Nigel Lewis-Walker (of Zimbabwe Air Force fame ) is now the President - 083 237 2692. I think they are the only one left in S.A. now. They have members all over the Country and do a good news letter. Mervyn

Well - you seem to have cleared up that point - not an officer, but looks more elaborate than a basic o/r's - would senior N.C.O.'s have a different pattern? The '4 years' had been puzzling - thank goodness Leigh knew it. Graham - off track - but your avatar , is that you in uniform - how about a bigger one ?

Thankyou for this additional info. - would you agree with Graham that this is probably an officer's ? The green tuft would be accounted for by the earlier one being changed in 1906 - it must have still been in use. Mike - this shako is very similar to the pattern worn by postmen in the late Victorian period. I wanted to be sent to Knightsbridge - but ended up in the East End - it never pays to say too much...

Hello - Cooky. Welcome to GMIC - introduce yourself - join-in - and I hope you find it of value. This is the first stamp question I have seen on the Forum - there must be collectors, so I hope they welcome you and help with your question. Since the questions are not specifically on actual stamps, I will answer them from my point of view. From your comments I guess you are either at school or, college - therefore, my answers will be from an older persons perspective. 1. To me any stamp is a functional item - and very rarely I might think about it's design. 2. The British Post Office is a business that has to pay for it's running costs. So - yes. They will sell designs, but also, commemorate special events. Queen's Anniversaries for example. 3. The Queen is our Head of State - of course it doesn't get in the way. Occasionally they leave it off commemoratives - but not from the standard issue. Would be like leaving her portrait off coinage. 4. The item you describe would be - to someone of my age - disrespectful. Why would you want to put your picture next to the Queen. The question is probably only academic - few people under 30 write physical letters? And if the recipient was under 20 - could he read it ?? 5. Like the Royal Mint a great part of their income is derived from the special issues and commemoratives. Part of modern business. There you are Cooky - my input for what it's worth. Keep posting - but start collecting something useful - truncheons and tipstaffs are good !! Mervyn

Sgt. Major Morgan is a little - 'porky' - he obviously led from the front of the parade ground !! Actually, what I wanted to know, is from the actual photo, can you make out his first medal. Looks like the 1877-9 Sth. African issue - but was this Regt. present here at that time. Perhaps he transferred ?

Hi - Graham. You've just made my Sunday ! (makes up for the Vicar taking all my money...) I thought the heavy black braid was a bit too fine for o/r's and your explanations accounts for this. Badge is not really officers' quality, but then the date allows for a change over period. Any ideas on what '4 Years' might mean ? Mervyn

Thankyou for your reply (I was beginning to think that all the members had gone to that great Hall in the sky ! ) - I'm obviously not a Mason -although my Father was quite senior. I believe the Greytown Lodge has merged - a lot of people don't like travelling these days. Would the one with the gold centre be an important one ?

So, there you are Dick - you're not a descendent of a Duke !!! I hadn't thought of Scotsmen - I was thinking Romans or, Greeks. All of the Friendly Societies were copied from Masons and they sprang up in great numbers. They were an early form of insurance and helped with burials and in looking after widows and children. The Foresters were unusual in that they used heraldically decorated truncheons for one of the posts within the Committee.

Dick - there is no LaTondre listed in Fairburn's Crests of the Families of Great Britain and Ireland. However, it was common for families to have different branches. The key will probably be to identify from the crest , which is above the armorials. I can't make it out properly - perhaps you can do a close-up - however, it appears to be a stags head sitting on a coronet. What is in it's mouth ? There is a crest for the Foster family - the stag has an arrow in it's mouth ? Do you know anything about the history of the family - many French names came to Britain when the Protestants fled from Louis 15th. in the 17th C.. My Mother's maiden name was Bozier and they came at that time.I still think Rick is the best person - IM him. Anyway, let's have a close-up and I'll see what turns-up.