Mervyn Mitton

Rob , I don't think they disappear - rather they go onto earlier pages. If we decide to make this a general Aussie discussion thread , then new posts will keep it coming to the top. Really will be down to us as to how long we keep it interesting.

Hi - Rosalie. So pleased to have a chance to 'talk' to you. All of this wonderful info. and you've been keeping it to yourself ? We need photos and even more detail - our Aussiee early history needs to be brought out more fully and this thread has been excellent. Look forward to seeing more from you - when I can arrange it, will show an early prison warder's staff from the Port Alfred Penal Colony in Tasmania. It is exceptionally rare and pre 1852 (?) when Van Dieman's Land became Tasmania.

Garth - you must try to post a picture - would be interesting. I doubt if the mess dress is still used - most of the old traditions have gone. I had a terrible row with the Dep. Mayor back in 1995 - the freedom of the town was conferred on the Salisbury Island Naval Base - mostly an Indian unit. When they were disbanded the colour was hung in the Council Chamber. It disappeared and when I asked for it to hang in the Chapel at Natal Command , I was told it was in a cupboard and would stay there. Things have changed a lot...

How nice to see the tunic - so at least two Forces had mess dress, but being para-military I would expect RIC and RUC to have them.

I bet that instruction book has had more use in recent years then it ever did when it was a police issue ? Thank goodness you still have it - I remember they always asked for them back. Even Officers of Police were looked down on in military officer circles, as 'middle class' and apart from one or, two exceptions there was no need for mess kit. As someone pointed out there are no messes for most Police Forces and a dinner jacket - even in the early days would be adequate. Someone described a Ch. Supt. with purple collars - may have been a quirk of the Ch. Const. of the day - more probably - he had it made.

Ed - don't be so Positive ! Do what everyone in Africa does - go and 'mug' someone with a collection .....

Hello Megan. I've been enjoying your posts on the different medals and awards - particularly for the African States - which I obviously know well. Some are much better made than others - but, nearly all perpetuate the African desire to have their head on something - thinking about that statement, does the Queen feel that way - or, is she merely continuing tradition ? I am curious about how some of these smaller states - for example, Lesotho (the old Basutoland - home of the Ba-Sothos ) which is probably smaller than Hampshire - go about creating a range of awards. Would companies approach them - or, would they be recommended to go to a specific medal house ? Do the medal people offer a service incl. the creation and design - and does that mean, in fact, that some unknown clerk in a back room in Europe, is creating 'history'. We take things for granted - but someone has to create them !

After 1881 they became the 1st Bn. South Lancashire Regt.. Mossy, great post and I'm pleased you brought it back - I've enjoyed reading it. Was also good to see posts from Ed haynes - what a pity he doesn't seem to contribute now - his knowledge is invaluable to specific collectors. I also thought the posts from Rosalie were very interesting - the family connection is incredible. Is Rosalie still a member - I haven't seen her name on other posts ? What I wanted to say was - Thankyou.

The Forum always amazes me - one post and we have the State of Victoria uniform and the helmet - and for Queensland, we know exactly which Regts. Thankyou. I am still of the opinion that this material should be available for future members - however, no-one has followed up on the suggestion that we change the Title and that we all continue posting Aust. items - or, at least those that don't need their own thread. We all have to agree to this - so let's hear what you think. Stuart did say he was in favour.

Congratulations, Darrell - I had a feeling this was on it's way ! You now have the ' creme de la creme' of Boer War clasps - I just hope you haven't had to sell family members into slavery ??? The Protectorate Regiment was Baden Powell's own command at that time and had the greatest numbers. You now need a good gallantry group from the Siege to complete your collection - although, does one ever really complete a collection ? Some years ago we were offered the V.C. for Ramsden. He went out of the lines at Mafeking to rescue his brother - who received the DSO. We recommended auction and it sold for £50,000. Best wishes on a great addition.

Richard - do you by any chance, know if there is a family latin motto. Sometimes it is easier to look this up. I will look in Fairburn's Crests for you, to see if I can find any trace. Probably Rick will be the best bet.

Tom - I've been thinking about this matter of mess dress. I would expect the higher echelon to have them in the Met. (Comm., Dep. Comm, Asst. Comms..) since they would have to attend military, civic and Royal functions - however, I have never heard ref. to lower officers having them. There would be many dinners that would require a dinner jacket and medals to be worn, however, not many invites to functions requiring mess dress. I have been collecting for many years and have never come across the special insignia that mess dress requires. For example - the British South Africa Police in Rhodesia had full kit - they had special small rank badges and on the collars of the jacket, gilt insignia of the Force. Had they been general issue to the Met. - if only to Ch. Supt's. and above - there would still be many examples in circulation and I have never come across anything.

When you mention the Section House - do you mean the one on Ratcliffe Highway - nearest station was Arbour Square ? I was there for 18 months from Jan.98. I created a great 'stir' - I wanted my own TV in the room and that wasn't allowed, so I submitted a 728 to the Ch. Supt. requesting permission. The file came back - nearly 2 inches thick - it had gone right to the Comm. who had said - of course they can. So all thr others can thank me for that. Mervyn

Paul - I think you are wise to split - this has proved to be an excellent thread. I have a question though - when I was doing my mil. service in Australia we were always taught that a Company or Battery Sgt. Maj. wore a plain crown and was a W.O.3.. A wt. officer class 2 wore the crown with a laurel wreath. Obviously the Guards make their own rules, but what is the practise in the modern British Army - all 800 of them !!!

Interesting about the Garrison Sgt.Maj. - I always wondered if he had a special insignia. Does that mean at present , he only wears the one illustrated ? There used to be so many of the wrist band insignia - but, come to think of it I haven't seen one for years. Was it discontinued ?

Darrell - kind of you to check on Mr. Smith. The ref. you have found does seem to show he never received , or had fixed, the '01 bar - however, there could be some confusion on the rolls. I was speaking this morning to the person who took over from me as President of the Society for the Preservation of Militaria, in Durban. He is a captain with Natal Mounted Rifles. At that period there were 18 people serving with the name of Smith - several with the same initials - also, the NMR roll for that period was not kept properly and they are trying to research it at present. He was almost certainly entitled to the 1906 Rebellion Medal, but as we all know, families will split medal groups up. The medal will be sold on and I will tell the purchaser the possibility of the '01 - however, it is an important medal with these bars and can 'stand alone' quite comfortably. For me - the interesting thing is that this Colonial Regiment - and in 1900 the European population of Durban was 14000 people (in the Zulu War of 1879 - it was about 4000) - fought on the same Battle site - Laing's Nek - both times with small numbers in support of regular British troops.

How the mighty are fallen... incredible to think we are using the factories in Pakistan. Almost (but not quite) gives them credibility ! How did my value compare with fact - the last one we had was about five years ago and - I think - it sold for £90. Mervyn

With clasps - you read from the bottom to the top - given in order of award.

You are probably asking 'what's so special - just another Q.S.A.' Something in excess of 180,000 QSA's and KSA's were issued to British participents in the Boer War (1899-1902) the variety and combination of the bars is what makes them special. I believe the largest number of bars issued to one medal is ten - most are in the region of 2 to 3 and 5 is not that common. The bars or, clasps, are in different categories. Some will have a bar for 1901 or, 1902. The Province bars show which areas the awardee served in - remember not all those given were to servicemen. Dr's, train driver's, tug boat captains - many different civilian categories were given the medal and this can often add greatly to their value. Ones to newspaper correspondents are very sought after. The Province bars are Natal; Cape Colony ; Transvaal and Orange Free State. Natal being the rarest. Finally - and most important , are the Battle bars. The fewer the participants, the more sought after the medal. The Boer Campaign started in Natal - spread to the sieges of Ladysmith, Mafeking and Kimberley and then extended across the Country. In the first two battles we were succesful - from then on it was 'down hill' for quite a period. The first engagement was the Battle of Talana - this is a hill just outside the town of Dundee. Whilst we claim a victory - we were outnumbered and retreated towards Ladysmith. (small footnote - the only time a husband and wife were honoured with towns named after them. Sir Harry Smith was Governor in the Cape and Harrismith was named after him and Ladysmith, after his wife.) As our troops headed West they discovered that the Boers under Kock had advanced on the coal railhead at Elandslaagte. An unimportant village it was where the coal from the main Natal coalfields was sent for shipment to Durban. To lose control of the coal was unthinkable - all ships and trains were coal fired - and the Boers knew this. We rallied all available troops and the Battle of Elandslaagte took place - which we won, but then had to continue retreating to Ladysmith. The two most sought bars are Def. of Mafeking and Elandslaagte. The Mafeking one is much more valuable - however next in line is the Elandslaagte bar. Adding to the interest on this medal is that it is to Sth. Africa's oldest Regiment - Natal Mounted Rifles. They had about a 100 men present and this medal is named to'' Lieut. W.H. Smith Natal M.R. '' we think he was the son of the commanding Lt.Col. of NMR. The other bars are also important - Defence of Ladysmith - again, sought after and Laing's Nek. Named after the farmer who had originally farmed there it is famous for the 1st. battle in 1881 when we were badly defeated. N.M.R. had been present then and 100 men had charged up the hill on horseback in support of our British Infantry. An important medal to an officer of a Colonial Regiment - I think Darrell will find this interesting ?

Igor - I found this to be a very interesting post. The collecting of Jewish medals and insignia is a big field for many people - but, even with this, it is a neglected subject. With the first Jewish medallion - something I hadn't known about - you must have a valuable little set. Thankyou for showing.

These are ' sweetheart'brooches - made for wives or, girlfriends to wear to show that their loved ones were fighting. The habit of wearing them really started in the Boer War (1900's) and was very popular in both WW1 and WW2. Someone recently showed a diamond studded one (I think it was Chris ?) - these were usually from senior officers. These two are both hallmarked, but troops would often want the best for their women - so, it is not a definite guide that it was from an officer. I posted a board of these badges a little while ago - a very collectable field.

Paul - a lovely example. Since you are a collector, you have obviously checked that it isn't from Pakistan ? Looks to be in new condition and the bullion is beautifully worked. Not sure of current prices - has to be in the region of £150 with provenance. Congratulations. Mervyn. p.s. does this mean you are retiring from collecting now that you have them all ??

I wonder what the 4 Years means ? I noticed that the badge is King's Crown - if the helmet was issued in 1900 - or, perhaps afterwards, then it would be a King's Crown. (out of interest, we are short of dummy heads - this 100 year fruit bowl fits perfectly !!)