Mervyn Mitton

It was very kind of you to put the S.A. ones on - I am sure a lot of people will be interested. Despite being limited to this Country, they have never become as collectable, as say, the British ones. Mervyn

This may be of interest - the British and Rhodesian Forces in WW2 established Long Range Desert Groups in North Africa. This plaque is for Southern Rhodesia and I am told by the experts that it is the only one known. It came from the Officer's Mess of Rhodesian Light Infantry. Perhaps someone can tell us more about the unit ?

That's great ! Makes them more interesting with the info. - although, I think they would look nice framed. Leigh said how cheap they were some years ago - like everything, prices go up. The value of the cards now is about ?40 - ?50. Prob. more in the original book. Thanks for putting the full set on.

Mike - I'm going to join-in, because I fully agree with you - for once, I can't follow Leigh on standardisation. Yes - standardise weapons, radios - even vehicles- that helps recognition, but not uniform. The British uniform evolved from the 1829 pattern and changed to it's present form of tunic and helmet in the 1860's. People all over the World immediately recognise our Police - and indeed most other Countries uniforms are also recognised on sight. I agree that changes have to be made to keep up with modern standards - for example, my winter greatcoat was so heavy that I could hardly walk - let alone run ! So, make changes but, keep it recognisable. PICTURE : THE FIRST METROPOLITAN POLICE OFFICER IN 1829 (Drawing by Bob Marrion - our plan drawer at 'H' Div. and a brilliant artist.)

You also have to remember that the US purchased the 1820's pattern French sword ( can't recall the exact model date) as an issue to their army. By the time of the Civil War it was being made under license in America. So, who is to say that a special order couldn't have been made ? Needs a museum opinion. It also became one of the most forged swords in the World - the Indians and Italians have made so many that you have to be very careful - but obviously not in this case - the copies are so well made that the best way to detect them is lean on the blade and see if it 'snaps' - but, people don't like you doing this !

Whenever you see photos like this, it makes you realise how close to disaster GB came !! Why do you think the front row of the marching troops are all carrying binocs? Could they be anti-aircraft?

Hello - Charlie. As a newish member myself, may I say Welcome. I was very interested in your plastic badges - Leigh gave me an incredible number of those made . I suppose it just reflects how many men were fighting ! Do you have any idea of a price for the Hampshire one ? Mervyn (p.s. please let me know when you are selling the Dublin Fus. They were important in the Boer War.) Do you know Ian Shepherd - he lives in Knutsford and has just joined ?

With the interest in the M.C.groups - I thought this Canadian set could also have a place. All siver and un-named - although we do have his name with some other items (just couldn't find it quickly) I understand that he wouldn't have had the 39/45 Star as he was only ferrying planes to UK. ?

You did get to have a 'hot topic' from the post !! Seriously though, I am sorry that I got it wrong - in excuse, I must say that I see a lot more Boer War swords then I do Naval ones... However, with it's new attribution, it is worth a lot more now. email to either Sotheby's or Christies in London and ask them? (www.sothebys.com or, www.christies.com ) With best wishes Mervyn p.s. saw an interesting programme on the Icelandic horse recently. Lovely little animals - do they eat well !!!!!

'Monkey God' - according to that interesting link you gave - 13 million ?1 coins in circulation are forged - and they say that at 1% that is too low ! Bring back the 'hanging, drawing and quartering' !! If it's my money they're taking I have no pity... (p.s. nice likeness !!!)

Jonathan - I understood Wilkinson's had gone out of business and the research was no longer available ? Wilkinson were bought out many years ago by - I think - Hudnutt's , the US cosmetic co.. About two years after the purchase, the Chairman read a report that told him they owned the only sword factory left in the UK. He immed. tried to have the whole place shipped over, but, I understand he was blocked. Hudnutt's wanted the razor part to fight Gilette. The sword I posted came to us from Rhodesia and was an asst. comm's. - however, the other one I bought at auction in UK - it had a paper from the S.A.Govt. ordering it on behalf if the Rhodesian Govt.. I can't find this now - but, I don't expect it to be lost. All weapon exports to Rhodesia were banned during UDI - what I couldn't understand , was how it could be ordered by S.A. - they were banned as well ?

An interesting uniform - must have been difficult to launder with all the insignia. Do you still keep in touch with him ? They have been having a lot of problems with insurgents. Did he wear their usual cap with a high peak?

That's incredible - how did you know that???

I should have said - the figure climbing top right - is a Guardsman, the figure climbing top left, is trying to escape.. The pattern of police sword Smithers is wearing, is the 'D' shaped hilt - previously illustrated on this forum. To hang - draw and quarter. I wonder how many people realise that this was a common form of punishment for very serious cases and where the Govt. wanted to make an impression on the public. First, they were hung - but not killed. They were then taken down - their bodies cut open and the entrails removed. The bodies were then 'quartered' - or, cut into sections. This would be head, arms, legs and torso. These parts were then sent by horsemen to main cities all over England and hung in special iron cages over the main gates. There would be a notice saying why he had been executed. You wonder if it ever achieved anything - crime never seemed to drop !! *FULL COPYRIGHT IS CLAIMED ON THESE FOUR PAGES - NOT TO BE RE-PRODUCED WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION*

This is the detail panel from under the print - hopefully, it will be big enough to read. These prints were printed in B&W and hand coloured. Because ordinary people could not afford newspapers and often, could not read or write - that did not stop the healthy interest about what was going-on around them. These broadsheet were quickly turned out and sold on the streets - prices varied, but usually a penny , up to 4 pennies. The overall size of the print is 18.5 " (app.40cm) x 11 " (27cm)

This is the full size of the print - I cut the one down above, to show the central action more clearly. There is always a problem with flash on glass. THREE tipstaves can be seen being carried - showing the great importance they had in those days. Smithers is seen dropping his, as he is stabbed - the Runner behind him is holding his tipstaff forward - and the Runner coming up the stairs is holding a larger tipstaff - more typical of the Bow Street Constables for that period. Strangely enough, I bought this original Cruikshank print from a man in Capetown, Sth.Africa.

I have shown a number of rare tipstaffs on this forum - however, they were discontinued in the 1880's when warrant cards - or, I.D.'s - were introduced. Drawings of them in use are exceedingly rare - however - the event shown here is one of the great incidents of the 19th Century. THE CATO STREET CONSPIRACY as it came to be known, involved the killing of the Prime Minister - Lord Liverpool - and his entire cabinet, whilst they were at dinner in Grosvenor Square. The leader was a disturbed man, who thought if they could kill the leaders, then the 'oppressed' masses would rise. Rumours of their conspiracy had become known and the Govt., with Bow Street Police Office in charge ( remember the Metropolitan Police were not formed until 1829) had been keeping them under observation. On the evening of 23 Feb. 1820 , 18 conspirators met - the famous Bow Street Runners - England's first detective force - with the support of the Guards - set-up a raid and as they rushed in Smithers - a senior 'Runner' was stabbed. 11 of the conspirators were charged 5 were publicly hanged (commuted from hanging, drawing and quartering) and 6 were transported to Australia. (prob. today's cabinet ??) Within 2 weeks, the famous artist Cruikshank had drawn the incident and on Mar.9 1820, this broadsheet - as they were known - was being sold on the street. (I will continue this short history under the next post.)

The Act that Jeff has shown, would seem to me, to be a lawyers dream. The first part does say - quite clearly ' made by any US mint ' - so I agree, Rick is probably right about the American coins,if they are forged. However, for foreign coins, my interpretation would be that forgery (or counterfeiting) would only occur if it was a current coin from the country being copied. This leaves it wide open - no wonder law is a good profession !

Alan - good call. I thought I may have got them the wrong way round. As for the white one - I have never seen one, they must be rare - obviously, for that rank very limited numbers. Now, how do I paint a plain one ???

Thankyou Jeff - that's a good start. The operative words being 'current' and intent to commit fraud. That doesn't seem much different to the UK.

To prove counterfeiting would be much more difficult than fraud. You would have to link your suspect to the offense - i.e. you would need dies or, printing plates, paper - or, metal , and possibly samples that they had made or, used. To pass a forged item is called 'uttering'. That is not difficult to prove - it is an 'absolute' offence, so only one example is enough for arrest. To prove fraud would be much simpler. The circumstances, the material used (coins or, paper) witnesses and that would be sufficient. If counterfeiting was so easy to deal with, you wouldn't have the Treasury Dept. in the US. Mind you, that is America - we would send one uniformed P.C. to deal with the matter !!!

Then surely that is fraud - an offence defined ' as intending to gain a pecuniary advantage by deception'. I really don't think that your laws would be much different ? I would be interested now, to hear what some of our lawyers would say ?

Rick - I've decided your just an 'old' cynic ! Put your trust in politicians - thery've got a living to make !! If a coin or, note has been discontinued it is not counterfeiting - since no-one would be fooled. The offence would be theft by deception (if succesful) or, attempted theft by deception (if not). There is of course, still an offence of counterfeiting. One could also think of the offence of fraud.

Probably thousands over the past few hundred years. With the death penalty now abolished - apart from treason - they now send them to prison. The most serious 'usual' offence, was coin clipping. With coins mostly of gold or, silver, they used to clip edges off the coins - do that to 6 or 8 coins and you have the metal for another. This ,of course, is why we have milled edges to coins. When I was in the Met. police, we were often called by shopkeepers ( and market traders) when fakes were passed. They would always say - ' I must have been given it in change' - however, the offence is an 'absolute' one and it is enough to be in possession of only one coin or, note. Unless you had reason to suspect otherwise, then we took no further action - but, they lost the item. If you think about it , the debasement of the currency is one of the most serious things that can happen to a Country - and all countries treat it very seriously.