Mervyn Mitton

Thankyou, Helen - they were all interesting - even the plain ones. The ivory handled example is very special - I would suspect ,either for a very senior person or, perhaps for temple rituals. The one you found is an almost replica of the one I posted - except it is very much smaller. Perhaps it was all part of the ritual dance - as you say, we must hope a member will come forward with more info.?

Helen, may I be your assistant - I love museum basements?? When I was at boarding school, at Geelong in Victoria,Aust.,I ran the school museum. I approached the curator at the Melbourne museum and thay used to let me spend an afternoon in the basement, going through all the old weaponry. I would put a hundred ,or so, together and my Father would collect them and bring them to school. Used to make great exhibitions, the only time we had any numbers. I did meet Field Marshall Lord Slim, and his wife, when they were brought around. A great honour as I deeply admired him - in my humble opinion he was the best commander in WW2. (just as well no-one is reading this,I'd be in real trouble.)

The overall length - stern to bow sprit - is 30 " ( 74cm). I actually brought several back as gifts. They make a special strong cardboard case and they travelled well. The business of making them is a major one for Mauritius and they export all over the World - but, much cheaper on the Island. (Just costs an arm and a leg to get there!)

Mike, your post here is - I'm sure - of great interest. There are similarities in duties wherever you live in the World, but it is good to see them detailed. Mind you, whilst I'm impressed with your knowledge on Br. police origins, I shan't tell you any more about Sheriffs !! By the way - where did a 'posse' come from??? I think I prefer the hours you used to keep - we had a three shift system (now all changed) and did 6a.m. to 2p.m. and 2p.m.to 10.p.m. for six alternate weeks and then, three weeks of nights 10p.m.-6a.m.. I could always understand why so many Br. police marriages collapse - they just never see each other. Once again, thanks for a great post.

Hi - Brett. Been there, done that !! I think the older members just have to put up with mistakes from us newish members. I'm so glad you were able to enter the detasils of your Grandfather (I had remembered him as your uncle) - that is living history. Hope to see you one day soon. mervyn

That's the medal Brian - now we need to know exactly what they were trying to accomplish in Canada - and were the two that escaped involved ? Paul - I always wondered what they thought in Ireland - do you have any other info. on reactions , songs, etc., I would like to put it with the panel. The panel was a court exhibit and part of the door that was forced to release the prisoners ( a two door van). They obviously showed the door damage and when the case finished the lawyer had the panel framed.

Cheshire were the main County Force to wear the shako , as a helmet - and not for a long period. That doesn't mean that some of the small forces that sprung-up might not have copied them. The first card has a magnificent crown - it can be dated to between 1870's and 1901. Edward V11 was married then and the previous Princess of Wales had been George 2 or,3. There is a book on Police helmet plates - a former supt. of mine V. Wilkinson co-authored it - they are selling them at discount through PICA. (Police Insignia Collectors Assoc.)

Could it be the 1897 jubilee - he looks the right age - even, the golden jubilee?

The origin of 'cop' is held to be from the French word - copeur ? To hold or , arrest. As you say Leigh, we have been known by many names. 'Old Bill' and 'Peeler' from Sir Robert Peel, founder, whilst Home Secretary + all of the others you list. The favourite in the East End of London was to call us 'John' - as in ' Hey! John - got the time?' The answer from me used to be - 'yes'. '' Now stand up straight, take your hands out of your pockets, spit the gum out and now, turn your pockets out.'' By the time this was finished we had forgotten the original question and they weren't too keen on being funny in the future.

Leigh - thanks for taking all this trouble - and to everyone else - what a pity I didn't know him, would have saved all this effort. I agree with you re: the shape of the Crown. This was the one that was in use at the end of the 19th. C - and carried over in the early period of Ed.7. With regard to the medal - I think it is oval, with two bars - because of the big suspender it appears to hang ,lower and, therefore, looks oval. When he was commissioned, I was told by my Father that he was transferred to another Regt. - as, is I believe, the usual case. I had the Derbyshire Regt. fixed in my mind, and then remembered the family also, mentioning the Northants. Looking through a jewellers loop, the collar badges have most resemblance to the Northants, - a castle, with three turrets. I am sorry that I can,t be more sure - my memory has failed me in this case - it is 35 years since my father died. Merv.

Is the numeral printed or, brass ? Looking forward to your book arriving may I do a review for the Forum ?

Thankyou for correcting me - this is information that may be available from many sources - but, tends to be overlooked because it does not form part of your own history also, because a name will 'stick' in your mind. I think we need info. on Canadian historical events. I am going to post shortly, the history of a man who helped form the North West Mounted Police in 1873. Mervyn

That's interesting info. - I don't know a lot about their early history - only, that I dodged their bombs in the early 70's ! ( had a bomb left in a building on my beat, I had to stay there and evacuate the building - all 20 stories of it!! Sir Trevor MacDonald turned up to report for ITV - never even spoke to me !!! I missed a comma on the names of those hung - it was three - not two. According to the write-up all three were hung together - in front of the prison. Imagine the crowds.

Terrific, Brian. Will look forward to more posts. One question - the photo - was that in UK or, Canada ?

My mistake - Salford Prison - not Belle Vue. I've still got the key if we need to break out - the problem will be that it was pulled down in 1893 !!

THIS HAS NEVER BEEN SHOWN AND COPYRIGHT IS RETAINED. This is going to be one of the rarest posts you will see from me. I have owned it for over 35 years and it had hung over a fire in the lawyer's office who represented the Crown, at the trial. I will not give all the intricate details - the next post of the handwritten frame, which hung with this, will give most details. Because of coal fires the canvas was so black that we had to have it restored - square inch at a time - to remove the dirt of over 100 years. Basically, it marks the start of the Irish Republican Army - only in those days they were called the Fenians. In 1867/68 a movement was started to begin a rebellion in Ireland - which in those days was one country. They had intended to attack Chester castle - steal the arms and take them to Ireland. This was foiled and Special Police were sworn in - in thousands - all over Britain. They also , planned to mount attacks in Canada and a special medal was awarded. ** Perhaps someone could show one and also give details of the Canadian episodes ? ** Returning to this panel - it was the painted canvas door to the 'Black Maria' (paddy waggon) that Sgt. Brett was in charge of escorting. The vehicle was drawn by two horses. The principals escaped to New York - may have been involved in Canada and poor Sgt. Brett was shot. Two of his attackers were hung at Belle Vue Prison in Manchester for which I have the brass front door key !! The panel is 29" long (70cm) and 22" high (53cm). The VR represents Queen Victoria's cypher,or monogram.

Mike - when you have time, tell us a little about being a dep.sheriff. What were your duties, hours , patrols, arms etc.. To most people outside of the U.S., peacekeeping is only what we see on t.v.. I have stayed in San Diego - did a house exchange with a Dr. and his wife. Would go and live there tomorrow - one serious problem though - it will drop into the Pacific at some time. I also did an exchange with an airline pilot for Air Canada - he and his wife kept a holiday flat in Hawaii - Oahu. A fantastic place and so friendly - however, I shouldn't think it has much in common with the mainland States? One question that always worries me - why do they send Police in the States out on their own on lonely patrols - I know the answer is prob. manpower - but, surely safer to double-up and have fewer patrols? They always seem so vulnerable, with help perhaps miles away. I used to feel 'lonely' on night patrols on my own - but in London if you put up a call - 'P.C. needs assistance' - you can have 20 cars come to your aid in 5 mins. This was why they carried swords on remote beats at night. After you answer all of these 'nosy' questions , I will tell you the origin of a sheriff . Mervyn

I thought this nice model of HMS Victory might be of interest. I bought this on a trip to Mauritius (can't remember the spelling - age !) some years ago. The island is famous for making model ships for all countries and , they get the original plans to make them to scale. I don't know of any visitors who don't come back without at least one. I won't give Vicyory's details - I'm sure other members in this section will know more.

Ed - thankyou for the info. on rank. Should you ever hear of a suitable cap or, pithhelmet , this has the trousers and it would make a good display piece. The silver will all polish up well.

Glad I'm not the Chairman ! I think it is his decision, but in my mind , I will post anything in the British Isles under British police and everything else under Worldwide. I think it's great how members are responding and we certainly want more from other Countries to truly represent World policing. Ed - I hope we don't have to have 'pistols at dawn' ???

Graham - I can only say Thankyou. Your knowledge is most impressive and has pointed me in a direction for further enquiries. Mervyn

I don't have a lot of modern material - particularly overseas forces - however, we must keep the momentum of the new sub-forum going. This is an original print from an Illustrated London News from 1879. The Natal Mounted Police were a small force of some 140 men at this date, and they sent a contingent to fight in the Anglo-Zulu War of that year. They were only formed in 1873 - Brett Hendey's (Hi,Brett) Uncle was a gaoler with this Force and it would be nice if he could add some details. I hope the caption is readable - if not it is some unfortunate policemen pushing a large vehicle up a steep hill. The story of our lives !!! Note the full uniform, incl. the standard white topee of the time. (- are you watching this Stuart ??) The officer - or, senior NCO on horseback is also well defined.

The British South Africa Police were established in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) by Cecil John Rhodes in the early days of the 1890's. They were intended as a force to take over the local people and to protect the Company's (his) interests. They were originally named The British South Africa Company Police. Their officers were mainly ex British military officers - and they were, and continued to be, a para-military force. They carried revolvers and rifles and had heavier weapons available. Their discipline was exceptional and they were always held up as being the best Colonial Force - outside of the UK. ( Meaning The Met. of course !) They lasted until 1980 and then became The Zimbabwe Police - noted now for their oppression and force against unarmed civilians. We have half of the population living in Sth. Africa . This cap - prior to 1980 was for the BSAP - and this pattern of bullion badge was reserved for officers, with a smaller version for women officers. Uniform - and in fact anything from the BSAP - is now keenly sought after.