Dieter3

Hi Mervyn, Sorry, I will be of zero help in identifying or knowing anything about these swords - but you may want to try these sites to get some info. I'm not a member of or connected to this group in any way, but I do know of them since I'm in the area: Northern California Japanese Sword Club and Nihonto I believe the owner of this site is affiliated with NCJSC - he may be able to help. Worth a shot! I'm sure there are tons of similar sites out there. Good luck, and keep us posted!!

Well, if I need to photograph something right away, I use diving weights - 2lb weights, shot inside nylon pillows,(and the pillows in plastic bags!) one at each corner. These do not mar the paper surface whatsoever. (It kills me when I see sellers using things like batteries and wrenches, and assorted hardware to do this.....) Granted, you have to crop those out if you don't want their ugliness in the picture, but that's easy enough! Another option is to use sewing weights - usually plastic capsules over lead or something heavy with a felt bottom that is safe to rest on delicate surfaces. But the preferred way is a lot more time consuming - the documents are first re-humidified which coaxes them into unrolling and becoming a bit more flattened, then the documents are placed between sheets of glassine and pressed under heavy weight for several weeks. This does a help a wee bit with wrinkling too, can't remove them, but it levels them out a fair amount. But once this is done, the documents are very easy to handle and much more cooperative, especially for photographing the entire document without any other intrusive objects. Yes, highly impractical to do this - but far easier to conserve when flat, and conservation is my primary goal - these all end up in polyester sleeves with an acid-absorbent, thick paper behind them and a sheet of glassine over the top - this prevents the mobile ink from some of the stamps (like on documents for orders) from migrating from the document to the polyester because of electrostatic charge. (Some inks seem stable, but the big imperial stamps in the middle of these docs. are not so I take to not disturb them as best I can.) Then these flattened, sleeved documents end up in archival storage boxes. The cases or tubes are all identified and stored separately if the document came with one.

And that's the crappy, grainy, low-res version for this site!! The lighting at my house is really, really bad. Natural light is pitiful for me - I actually have to use 4 pole/torch lamps to get as much light as I can at the right time of day. The picture of the document was taken in the that light plus flash. The second pic. was just the lamps, no flash, macro. The background is white, don't know if that makes a difference at all, but it seems to brighten things up reflecting light and such.

I believe I am correct in stating that this is a document for the Order of the Sacred Treasure, Gold and Silver Rays - what would be the 5th class equivalent if the 7th and 8th classes still existed. I think. Please correct me if I'm wrong, somebody! Anyway, this one is in really nice condition with only a few tiny wrinkles, probably from being unrolled a few times. But no damage, seems awfully yellow, but maybe that's how modern documents are? It's at least uniform. This is really current, from 2008. The case tube is in mint condition, now I just need to keep it that way! Sorry, I don't obscure names, hope that doesn't offend anyone....

Markus - show a picture of the reverses and maybe somebody here will be able to provide more info from the writing (assuming there is some!)

Lovely Markus!!

Thanks Rich! I'll take you up on that offer. I certainly don't doubt what is written, I'm simply confused by what I have seen for sale! Of course it is possible that sellers have stuck these rosettes with the medals to sex them up, or perhaps even the original owners obtained replacements that took the more modern form???

Remember - chant after me - "Investment, investment, investment......." :lol:

Hi Rich, Is this a certainty on the 6th Class Golden Kite as to the date it received its own rosette? Did it not use the same rosette as the 5th class? I only ask simply because I've observed what I believe to be Taisho-era pieces with the 6-ray rosettes, the ones that appear to have thinner wall construction than the definitely Showa-era pieces. Same design as the earlier Rising Suns.

See, I find this system interesting - where Good is the lowest grade on the scale, but it does have a rating assigned to it, 10%. (And I know these are defined by certain features and condtions, so there is at least a basis). But it seems nonsensical to me. The levels of "fine" are ridiculous. Yes, I understand that there is some meaning applied to these levels, but I think I prefer something more to the exact point - POOR, FAIR, GOOD, VERY GOOD, EXCELLENT, NEAR MINT, MINT - then throw in a +/- system based on certain other criteria. I mean, to me - a piece at 10% is poor - why call it good? Like I mentioned before - I'm pretty tough on things - one could have what is otherwise a perfect piece, but if there an abrasion on the ribbon, I will automatically disqualify it from being anything better than a Good(-) - and that only if everything else is REALLY, REALLY awesome. I don't know, I see damage as damage. You can't call something near-mint if it has a crack in the enamel or a tiny stain on the ribbon - it simply isn't in my mind. I never consider age either in an unbiased, objective system. I'm guessing numismatics do not either, but a lot of sellers sure do - Yeah, something could be "excellent for the age" - compared to the average specimen of whatever we are talking about. But it's not EXCELLENT in the grand scheme of things. Am I just toooo picky??? Somebody set me straight.... Totally agree on supporting sellers that are into full disclosure - I recently got a piece that really looked nice in pics., and I asked the seller - is there ANY soiling or staining to the ribbon? The answer was NO - and indeed - very clean, nothing visible - BUT the rosette was a different story - and the auction picture conveniently included the better side - and the seller didn't mention this in the auction or to me when I asked - sure I didn't ask specifically about the rosette, but come on??? REALLY??? Dude, gimme a break - needless to say, I will no longer buy from that seller. Yeah, we've gotta go with due diligence, but some sellers are either just plain lazy or conveniently ignore those certain flaws - and unfortunately, too many buyers (I feel) do not give neutral or negative feedback simply because they want that positive feedback themselves. Not helpful in assisting future buyers, nor is it helpful in developing sellers to keep them honest and hold them to a higher standard. Of the few items I've sold on eBay, I highlight flaws along with good points. Why surprise or disappoint somebody? Yeah, you'll maybe make a few less ducats on the sale, but you'll still get LEGITIMATE good feedback if the buyer really knows what to expect! Anyway, going off track here.....

Indeed these simply do not show up that often on the two primary sites - eBay and Y!JA - by far the most common are the 8th class and 6th class, but even these don't show up often with their cases and rosettes, let alone in nice condition. 4th class and higher - these are quite scarce by observation. Gavin, looking back at the very few data points I have on the 3rd class - I'd say you actually did well with that BIN price, especially given the condition! Yes, they've gone for less, but also in lesser quality (and no box for the rosette - which in my opinion is uber-cool!). The 4th, a little on the high end, but again for the quality - I still think this was a reasonable price for sure. You SCORED! No doubt about it. The one thing we all know for sure? THEY ARE YOURS! And that is what matters in the end. If you are happy with them, then price becomes very secondary if you ask me! - These do not qualify for "UNBELIEVABLE!" !!! What I might cast into that category were 2 examples from last year - a 3rd class, medal and neck ribbon only - went for more than $2100.00 US (one of the very few to make it to ePay) and a 6th class - Medallion only, not even a ribbon, no case, nada - around $450.00. To give you some idea, in the year period from mid-2009 to mid-2010, I observed a total of 7 x 3rd Class awards, and only 4 of those were complete with cases and rosettes. There were 4 x 4th class awards, only ONE with it's original case and rosette. There was a single occurrence of a 2nd Class award with a case, no rosette, and a single, and complete 1st class set that went for > 1,000,000 yen. NONE of these was on eBay. Data for 2010-2011 will be forthcoming, if I can get my lazy butt to organize all the data! :whistle:

Gents, Hoping to drum us some more conversation - this forum can get a little slow at times, but recently it has been very fascinating, so in an effort to keep some momentum......yes, I'm sure this belongs in a more generalized section, but I'll keep it here anyway since Japanese items are my main interest, and enough other folks will read this anyway. I understand that there at least appear to be standards for grading medals, but I personally find them insufficient, or at least what I've discovered thus far. The grading schemes do try to be objective, or at least present certain criteria, but seem to limit themselves to the METAL, and don't address the piece as a whole - I believe every component must be considered - the medal AND it's ribbon, and any pieces that should be attached to it, in addition to the rosettes and cases when they are present. Most schemes also seem to regurgitate the term "FINE" with other descriptive words tossed in like Good, Very, Nearly, so on and so forth. Sure, they mostly include "Mint" as well. Peachy. Is there an internationally recognized numismatic organization that is the be all, tell all of grading these pieces??? What I'm wondering is what other folks here use as their descriptors and criteria when they are judging a piece, how do you objectify it? No doubt, there is always a subjective factor inserted into this. I tend to be very hard and critical of things, I definitely don't use these other more generalized standards, save for the term "Mint". What do YOU find acceptable to meet a certain grade?

I've been waiting to see them posted.....and they are fabulous!! Your pics of those cases are far better than the Y!JA ones!

I suspected I was misinterpreting that! Plus, now we know these leather cases were an accessory, and never original to the actual medals, only the lacquer cases were! One thing though that I wonder about - what about the rosettes? You do see these for individual sale today, as new pieces. Who makes these I know not. But I wonder if these were available for separate acquisition during other times? Certainly people would have lost these and there must have been an avenue to replace them - but was the burden of proof still there, or was this considered too minor? Anybody know?

See, I find that an odd practice if it was simply a purchase like any other without some sort of meaning to it. I guess my thinking is that decorations need to be earned by some merit, not simply bought. Though perhaps I misunderstand your point? Granted, Japan Red Cross medals could essentially be "bought" though it was as a donation/membership (and also through meritorious deeds/services), and the actual merit awards weren't exactly cheap - and the funds went to serve a higher purpose. I don't believe that any other Japanese medal could be bought, short of some dishonorable, scandalous dealings.

I think this is difficult to determine and somewhat depends on the definition and use of the word "rare" - I watch Red Cross items (auctions, but limited to Y!JA and eBay.....) pretty closely and you definitely do not see these coming up that often, especially in complete form with the mounting pin and case. For me the definition of RARE = Very few made. I do not know how many of these commemoratives were made, but probably not a whole bunch. But yes, these are rare in the sense that you do not see them for sale all that often. If you are trying to sell it, I would say something like, "not often seen", but I suppose you could call it rare, or perhaps scarce.

It's a Japan Red Cross commemorative, that is Prince Akihito Komatsu, a patron of the JRC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Komatsu_Akihito I've seen these with the pin and in small wooden cases.

Hi Brian, Certainly an interesting question that I've asked myself before. First, I'd start with the cultural factors that I believe Rich has already pointed on the other thread that got this one going. Simply few occasions for actually wearing them! Meaning - few occasions to actually handle them. Less human contact automatically lends itself to a better state of preservation considering that we, biologically-speaking, are fairly detrimental to the well-being of many materials. Second, I might look at the numbers of awards made - some of these are into the millions - the Russo-Japan War medal, the China Incident Medal - to name a few - hence, it isn't too hard to find these in really nice condition. Same thing with some of the orders - many of these were made, and it is not hard to find post-war examples that simply aren't that old relatively speaking so it's not unusual that you'd find really nice specimens. There is an observable proportionality though of what is nice to how old it is - this would be expected - as you go back further in time, you find fewer and fewer nice examples of awards. Look at the Sino-Japanese war or Boxer Rebellion medals, not made in near the same numbers as say the Russo-Japan war medals, so no way you find them as nice - plus, I am also under the belief that there was a change in dyes being used in the early 1900s that were more fast than earlier dyes - a theory based on the number of Sinos and Boxers that you see suffering from color bleed. Though I'm probably just stabbing at things in the dark with my crackpot theories...... Third, gotta look at the very materials that were used - lacquer ware is very durable, especially if it goes largely untouched, and stored well. Let's face it, these aren't things seeing daily use and handling so nice cases should be expected. Paulownia wood too is fairly bug resistant, though you do find these wooden cases with the occasional worm hole. Still, the wood is actually light but tough and resilient. I'd also imagine that many of these were packed in cedar chests or some other kind of storage that would have a preservative effect. From what I gather, there are few fakes on the market. I think the quality of Japanese awards would be hard to replicate short of a significant investment - and this would only be worth it for higher class awards, not common items. There a lot of elements that one would have to duplicate correctly - It's not worth the effort and time for a medal that you can buy for a relatively low sum. That said, I'd be wary of buying anything out of China period. These are simply my opinions though. You do find a lot of medal groups on Yahoo! Japan, far fewer on eBay, this is true. How authentic the groups are is harder to tell - are they genuine, or simply cobbled together by a seller to make a few more bucks? I'd like to think that there was still some honor in Japan and that most items are legitimate, but there are those unfortunate few that put money above that honor. Still, I believe them to be a minority. I know none of these things are answers to the questions, merely thoughts! I am very interested to see how this thread develops!

Hi Tim, Though I can't speak for the dates when changes occurred, the photos I've collected of at least what appear to be earlier awards definitely bear this pairing of rosettes out! The information would seem to be accurate!

Well, referring back to the line drawings (that I did indeed get from your eBook.... ) - the only other thing that seems of use is the design of the hook and catch - but I don't know how significant that is or not. What would make sense? That the makers would likely stick to what was typically in use at the time and I guess the next closest thing would be the China Incident medal, no? So the medal that DRB1643 has pictured here certainly resembles the line drawings - as opposed to the one I showed at the top of the post - the hook and catch are clearly different. But is that significant of anything? The replicas certainly seem obvious, but having never handled nor seen an original (that I'm aware of), the one DRB shows draws a big "I don't know!" from me....

Well, it looks pretty nice, but that's more than I'd pay for it! Not sure that I'd go as far as pure insanity in this case though. It is complete, and not in bad condition.

Well, to build on Paul's point as well, don't the original Imperial Ordinance line drawings have the writing the same way as you pretty much find on all of these medals? Plus, the wording in Peterson - "......but in this case written left to right." Does he indeed imply that they were all this way, or just the particular example shown in his photos?? I would think it implies all of them, but seems contradictory to the line drawings. Why would this be changed?

Isn't that a low price an original??