GdC26

Sash looks like the GK des M-S Greiffenordens to me. Not an unusual award for Naval officers of flag rank. Pic is too blurry to make out the star, but it might be of the same order. The Oldenburg Hausorden GK sash would in my view look different in b/w. 

Kind regards,

 Sandro

41 minutes ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

Thank you Dan!

I agree with you. Now regarding the class of the medal.

Since he wasn't actively involved in China during the Boxer Rebellion (he was at the time the Executive of the Weapons Department, Imperial Naval Office (11 November 1895-13 July 1904), I think the class would be Stahl (Steel) and not Bronze. Do you agree?

The steel medal was awarded to people contributing to the war effort at home and the sailors of the merchant fleet transporting the soldiers to China.

I think you have answered your own question, not? Most likely bronze if he was not an active participant.

Kind regards, 

Sandro

And thank you Markus ......

Uniform 2 is Rupprecht., if I'm not mistaken (there is a Leopold tunic on display, too), and this is indeed Ingolstadt.

32 minutes ago, GODISHIGH said:

I'm thinking you all have me confused with somebody else.  I never owned the von Schraeder bar I only asked about it.  The bars I have purchased already had a name attributed to them but It just couldn't be verified through the bar alone.  The bars I had had combinations that other soldiers could have had and I couldn't prove they belonged to the individuals so I ended up selling them as the bar alone not named.  I purchased them as named for another seller who I trust that they belonged to the attributed individuals but just couldn't prove it and when I was selling the burden of proof was on me.  I only tried to sell them because I wanted something else or just needed some money at the time.  I'm not trying to get a name tacked on to the bars so I can make bank.  I fully intend to keep the bars unless I end up needing to sell it. 

And no im not the guy whose had bars ID'ed only to make bank somewhere else

Still, you could make the effort and do the research yourself, especially if you’ve been given a name. If you then present your findings here for verification, your query will probably be received more warmly.

Juat my 5cts.

Kind regards,

Sandro

?

Thanks for sharing these superb, very personal pieces Enzo.

I don’t think Stephan intended to make a political statement. In any event, let’s keep politics out of the discussion - things tend to get heated, and such statements have no bearing on this discussion or others on this forum anyway.

Kind regards, 

Sandro

32 minutes ago, Trooper_D said:

From what I can see from the pdfs linked to above, these books look to be of excellent quality, Stephan. 

I can confirm they are.

Let's try to get this back on track - BlackcowboyBS, any more info on the book?

33 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:

Es gibt leider keine echte deutsche Einheit mehr. Seit 1945 ist Deutschland besetztes Gebiet, und die 15 Millionen Fluechtlinge hatten bei der 'Wiedervereinigung' nichts zu sagen!

???

On 03/10/2020 at 09:56, BlackcowboyBS said:

Dear Colleagues and Collectors,
actually I wanted to announce it officially in Gunzenhausen, but since Gunzenhausen is cancelled this year, here it is! 
I started working on the book about the orders and decorations of the Kingdom of Hannover. Since I can now bring in the experiences from my book about Brunswick, I think it will be a good book. 
I'm not sure if there will be, for example, the list of all bearers of the three Hanoverian Orders. For the list in the book about Brunswick I have been typing and checking lists every evening for almost 4 months. In Hannover it would probably take even longer and many people want to buy the Braunschweig book without the third part. What is your opinion about this? 
From some museums I have permission to use their pieces, two big Hannover collectors will also allow me to use their collection, but I will definitely need the help of one or the other here. 
I'm looking for photos of people wearing orders and decorations from Hannover, as well as photos of rare pieces and variants and award certificates! 
Soon I will activate an email address, which will be used only for the topic orders from Hannover. I will publish it here and you can communicate with me there. 
As a small introduction I want to tell you some information about the Golden Chain / Collane of the Order of Guelphs, maybe some of you don't know it yet. 
There are three different collanes, there are real golden, silver gilded and bronze gilded. If you look at the statutes of the Order of Guelphs, you will notice that the name cipher of the founder George III is shown without the III. The real golden and the silver-gilt specimens, however, have a Roman 3 under the name aisle, the bronze-gilt chain does not. Here I show you the averse and the reverse side of the cipher of a silver gilded chain. The hallmarks are nice to see, you can easily recognize the manufacturer. (Everything else about this in my book) 
The chains were made in Hannover as well as in England, maybe also in France, I have to check that. 
My time schedule is as follows, the book should be published in spring 2023, I am aiming for the spring meeting of the DGO. 
With this in mind, I wish you a happy 30th anniversary of German Unity.

 

Interesting topic, look forward to updates and the end result.

8 hours ago, Christian J said:

What do you think about this SEHO Ritterkreuz 1st klasse. Foreign-made? Can't find any markings. Certainly gold.

Is that some sort of fold running through the front medaillon (9 o' clock and 2 o' clock positions)?

52 minutes ago, saschaw said:

A great idea and so well executed, thanks Alex! It's good to see I'm not the only one to miss the old days of GMIC...

For those of us who have lost their track of time, as I often feel I have: Today, it has been seven years since Rick's untimely loss. He still is and will always be missed as a major part of our community that is, in so many regards, what he (with others, of course) developed it to be.

+1

7 hours ago, laurentius said:

The yellow on the fourth ribbon is too bright to be a St. Henry, not to mention the colour is discoloured green, not discoloured blue

This is the ribbon of the St. Henry and the BZL respectively. If we forget for a moment that a Saxon St. Henry wouldn't have swords there would still be the case of the yellow/orange which is way to bright and the shade of the green that has been discoloured by time.

 

Although the ribbonbar is not original, I wouldn't throw it out yet, as it is made up of genuine parts.

Laurentius, I know both ribbons, and as far as I'm concerned, this is the St. Henry (and so, apparently, did Helmut, who handled the bar, unlike you and me) - so no need to show them, let's simply agree to disagree. All the more so since in this case, the final determination is quite irrelevant, since we both seem to agree the bar has issues.

10 hours ago, laurentius said:

Your pictures are actually better than those of Helmut. The second ribbon is a RAO, but my thought was correct, the fourth decoration is a BZL and not a Saxon st. Henry.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this bar is not genuine. The frontside gave us some doubts which were sadly confirmed by pictures of the backside. This style of ribbonbar was common during the third reich, consisting of a metal backplate onto which pieces of ribbon were fixed by small clips, which you can see at an interval on the backside of your ribbonbar. Given the fact that all of these seem to have different aging and different materials, together with the fact we have several types of devices on the front and the nonsensical combination I would have to conclude this piece not to be genuine. I would invite other collectors to give their opinions.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Its not a BZL but a St. Heinrich, but that doesn't change what I said before, that the bar is probably problematic (as the odd combination, the sequence and the absence of a DAK already suggested).

1 hour ago, laurentius said:

But we haven't yet looked at the other option, what if this RAO isn't an RAO at all but rather a HT? I think the white is more like a discoloured blue. This would however not explain the position of the RAOx/KOx and the lack of swords on the Hindenburgcross. Once we have better pictures it will be easier to cast judgement.

I see white, not a discoloured blue, but I'm sure Luke can tell us one way or the other. I also see Helmut described the RAO ribbon as ..... a RAO ribbon and the St. Heinrich ribbon as just that, not as a  discoloured BZL ribbon.

If ribbon nr. 2  is a HT, the placement of that ribbon after the EK II but before another prussian award on war ribbon (which Helmut identifies as a HoH3X, but the device seems wrong for that) would be even weirder. And then there is still the unexplained absence of a DAK. 

Sorry, but the bar gives me no warm fuzzy feelings.

6 hours ago, laurentius said:

I don't think this ribbonbar was owned by Phillip at all, if we identify the awards correctly we might be able to find the owner though, the combination (atleast to me) seems unique enough.

The problem however is the decorations and the grades, is the third ribbon a KOx or a RAOx? Are the BZL and the WF second or first class? Those are the questions we need to answer before we can even start looking throught the rolls.

I doubt you'll find him, because the ribbon bar looks problematic to me, as noted above - KOx or RAOx after a peacetime RAO? And even we look past the sequence issue, when would our man have earned the KOx or RAOx? Sure, our man had China service, but no other colonial service that would explain a RAO4X or KO4x. And no DAK, even though he served in 1897 and apparently in WWI? 

If real, it would take the skills and memory of the late Rick Research, the great inspirer of this forum,  to trace him, I think.

1 hour ago, Napalm_Jelly96 said:

Thank you! 

 

I will post the pictures below when I get home!

That will be interesting.

11 hours ago, laurentius said:

I think the ribbon which is said to be a St. Henry is actually a BZL

That is possible, but still not a match for Otto Philipp I think.

Sorry for the mixup, Kriegsmarine Admiral. Looking at the bar again, I'm not even sure the St Heinrich is a St. Heinrich knights cross, which shouldn't have the swords. Frierdichsorden knight second class strikes me as too low an award for a Kapitän zur See, as I see from the screenshot he was from 1904 up to his appointment to Konteradmiral in 1916. So I might be wrong, but I just don't see it.

Kind regards, 

Sandro

Komtur,

Maybe it's me, but I don't see a match between the list of Phillip's awards in your post and the ribbon bar shown. 4 seems to be Saxony, St Heinrich knight, 5 looks like Württemberg, Friedrichsorden knight 2nd class with swords. i see no evidence 2 ever had a crown or Schleife. 3 is a Kriegsorden but which is unclear to me, and in any event it strikes me 3 should precede 2. And where is the DAK?

I could not find the bar on Helmut's site - did he explain the attribution in his original posting?

Kind regards, 

Sandro

Thanks Sascha. Corona volente I'm hoping to be there.

Best,

Sandro

On 30/08/2020 at 06:16, Simius Rex said:

In my opinion, the photograph in the link was taken around the time of the Befreiungskriege Centennial celebrations.  The man looks like he has a fake mustache and beard glued onto his face.  His uniform, to a large extent, looks like a reproduction.  He was probably a participant in re-enactment activities for one of the several celebrations taking place in 1913. I pity the fool who paid 2K for what was probably intended to be a novelty portrait. Just my 2 cents.  Simi.    

Much as I like your thesis Simi, I'm not a 100% sold on it. The comparison with the other pic you've shown is problematic, because most of the uniform details are hidden by the Pelz worn in that photograph. More importantly, the Pelzmütze shown in the threadstarter seems to be of an altogether different type of those worn in the Napoleontic area, and could in fact be correct for the mid 19th century. 

I am traveling and don't have access to my books, do I had to resort to the internet - but if you study the plates below you'll see what I mean. 

Mind you, I'm not saying the threat starter is good, and I agree there are some crude details on the tunic (like the mounting of the tress on the right breast of the person depicted, and the rather curious way the shoulder board is attached). But I'm not fully sold yet on the theory that this is (just another) centenary pic.

17 minutes ago, saschaw said:

From what is displayed, I'm pretty sure they are early 40s, if not late 30s. Are there any WW2 era awards displayed, I'm not sure? All I can recognize is pre-war Nazi era stuff, plus older German states' awards, of course. I also find it less likely Steinhauer & Lück would present Nazi awards that public in the young Bundesrepublik.

I think you are correct, Sascha.

6 hours ago, laurentius said:

If you are referring to the last decoration on the bar I will have to disagree with you. The last cross is in my opinion the Guelphic Order.

Kind regards, Laurentius

And either way, in Sasha’s picture he is not wearing both the GC and a GC Kleinkreuz (avant la lettre, because in Prussia these only started to be worn during WWI, best I know).

Tifes, the VM mark is not on the cros shown by 1812 Overture: that cross, as he stated, is unmarked, which is the very reason he posted it here for review.

17 hours ago, laurentius said:

The colour of the ribbon of the Order of the Netherlands Lion has not been changed since 1815.

We see the Duke wear the Grandcross of the Order of St. Henry, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that the cross we are discussing, is also the Order of St. Henry. The devices between the cross-arms look a bit like crowns. 

Why would the Duke wear two St Heinrich crosses, and if it is  indeed a second St. Heirnichsorden, why does it have solid white cross arms and no blue ring around the centermedaillion? It seems to me it must be something else, although I have yet to identify it.

Given the era, something French monarchical perhaps? I agree the center medallion seems to display a standing figure, and for moment considered the order of St. Louis, but don't think that is correct (wrong ribbon-color plus only given to catholics, as I understand it).