GdC26

The proper translation of “Weiland“ would probably be “late”.

Kind regards,

Sandro

Thanks Bayern, but I think that date is wrong. This is what I shared privately with Claudio, from a book on Bavarian spiked helmets issued by or based on the collection of the Bayerische armeemuseum in Ingolstadt.

It puts the introduction at 18 April 1913 (with a 20 February 1914 extension to generals as honorary regimental commanders ("Regimentsinhaber") and Generäle a la Suite) and clearly mentions the absence of lauerelleaves as a feature of the new plate (which goes directly to Claudio's original question, and which is why I sent it to him).

Kind regards,

 Sandro

My pleasure Claudio, I hope things work out either way. 

Kind regards,

 Sandro

Pleasure, Claudio. As you may have seen, I've meanwhile responded to your PM by e-mail, sending you a scan of two pages from the book I referenced. It is clear from the description of the relevant regulations given there that the plate should not have laurel leaves. 

I've also checked the pictures in my collection, and have not found any wartime or postwar "old boys gathering" pics of a helmet with laurel leaves being worn (and I've seen some oddities at post war gatherings orf retired generals). So I think the helmet at hand requires explanation.

Hope this is of assistance.

Kind regards, 

Sandro

Ciao Claudio,

There are several at Weitze: 

https://www.weitze.net/militaria/29/Bayern_Pickelhaube_fuer_Generale_nbsp__365929.html

and

https://www.weitze.net/militaria/53/Bayern_Pickelhaube_fuer_Generale__223253.html

neither of them with laurel leaves.

One of them shows you what the back of the plate should look like. Did you remove and check out yours (I'm always hesitant to do so, but it is important to tell real from fake these days)? And did you check fro possible "Doppellöcher" in the helmet's body, indicating it may have had a different plate at some point in time? Moreover, but is there any indication that the liner may have been replaced? Hard to judge from the pics, but its condition does not seem to match the condition of the helmet.

Time permitting I'll go down to my library and dig out an excellent book I have on Bavarian spiked helmets. I'll let you know what I find. In the meantime, the only helmet with laurel leaves I found on Helmut's site is this cavalry/field artillery helmet: https://www.weitze.net/militaria/95/Bayern_Pickelhaube_fuer_einen_Reserve_Offizier_in_den_Chevaulegers_Regimentern_1_3_5_und_7_oder_der_bayerischen_Feld_Artillerie_Regimenter__361495.html

But GM Martin Zöllner's M 1902 helmet I bought at Kube many moons ago does have laurel leaves. Perhaps yours is a M 1902 (basically with a standard infantry plate, but of higher quality, if memory serves) that the general upgraded on the introduction of the enameled plate in 1913: but it would require an inspection of the plate etc. to confirm that.

Is it named anywhere? Zöllner's helmet has his name written in pencil on the inner body of the helmet, underneath the liner.

Bayern and you are right about the color of the Beschläge: silver for generals, gold for medical generals and Generaladjutanten. 

Kind regards,

 Sandro

Very interesting reading, thanks gents.

2 hours ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

Indeed, it could be the Orden der Württembergischen Krone. But the class should then be the Ehrenkreuz, there was no Offizerskreuz of that order. Photo attached below.

Yes, that is what I had in mind, thanks for correcting me .....

Focusing on the numbered awards, the identification of 1, 2 and 3 strikes me as correct. Not sure about 4, though, given the round shape of the center - could 4 be an officers cross of the wuerttemberg crown instead?

kind regards,

Sandro

Correct. I may still have Ken’s old pics somewhere. Am currently traveling, but will post them if I have them when I have returned.

Kind regards,

Sandro

Pleasure Ian. Why not share the pic of von Bauerntal you say you have located? Von Bauerntal would have been 49 at the time of the pic, which seems possible. When was your pic taken?

Anton Bauer was born in 1855, so he was 61 by the time the pic was taken - the man in the pic seems younger, but it is possible. As time permits I'll have a look atmy references to see if I can find anything to support or deny your thesis. 

Kind regards,

 Sandro

Ian,

So from the looks of it, based on the pic and the notation "GM" after the scribble, your man was a GM in July 1916, with a Bosnian horse called "Floch" (that is what I think "Mein Bosniaker" refers to), so possibly cavalry.

Viktor Andreas Leopold Bauer Edler von Bauernthal would fit that bill: born 31.3.1867, died 24.11.1937, GM 1.11.1914, FML 1.11.1917, commander K.u.K. 10th Cavalry Division October 1915 - November 1918. I could not find a picture of the man, but he seems like a strong possibility. Was he amongst the Bauers you eliminated? 

I've checked for Rauch and a number of other possibilities, but I've not found anyone of general rank with the surname "Rauch", and could not identify other possible candidates.

Hope of use. 

Kind regards,

 Sandro

Thanks Ian. I should have a list of WW1 Austrian generals somewhere, will look for that and see If any names appear that look like the scribble on the back.

 Kind regards,

Sandro 

On 24/02/2020 at 02:19, Bayern said:

Hello ,I dont recognize the uniform with ueberrock . blue collar and lapels , blue band on the cap .all made of velvet , apparently General shoulder boards and only the Bavarian cockade on the cap .over the cockade a badge . someone could explain me what kind of uniform is?

If I’m not misstaken that is the post 1918 dated St. Georgs Orden uniform of Prinz Alfons, sold by Der Rittmeister (Ken Greenfield). I seem to recall the pants had a 1929 tailor label.

Kind regards,

Sandro

Apparently, there is picture on the obverse of the good general - if so, why not share it, perhaps someone recognizes it? 

The reverse looks familiar - a German eBay find? 

Kind regards,

 Sandro

Another pic of the interim baton in use, currently for sale on German Ebay: https://www.ebay.de/itm/352973648046?ul_noapp=true

Congrats Roman, on a unique and very nice grouping.

Kind regards,

 Sandro

50 minutes ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

Is it the Flügel-Adjutant badge of Kaiser Wilhelm I. or II. ?

Wilhelm I, awarded in 1888 whilst von Seckendorf was serving as Flügeladjutant to Wilhelm I. At the time, he held the rank of Kspitän zur See. See the overview below, kindly reproduced from OuE issue 104, p 185

I agree, well done KM admiral.

Kind regards,
Sandro

8 minutes ago, GreyC said:

He didn´t commit suicide. It was Adolf Friedrich VI.

He was said to suffer from depression, ultimately the cause was never established, though.

GreyC

Thanks for the correction on the number. So it must be murder then? The cause was established by the coronary, who described his findings, but just did not draw any final  conclusions (which was not unusual in such circumstances involving royalty): he was found with a gunshot wound, and drowned. The prevailing view is he committed suicide. 

"Am 24. Februar nachmittags fand man dann die Leiche des Großherzoges mit einer Schussverletzung in der Brust im Kammerkanal bei Neustrelitz. Die Schusswaffe konnte trotz intensiver Suche nie gefunden werden. Als Todeszeitpunkt wird im Obduktionsbefund der Abend des 23. Februar 1918 angenommen, als Todesursache wurde „Ertrinken“ festgestellt, in der Annahme, dass der Schuss nicht sofort tödlich war. Im Obduktionsbefund des Amtsarztes Dr. Wilda heißt es, er sei „getroffen, vornüber ins Wasser gefallen und ertrunken“. (...) Aus seinem Umfeld wurde von depressiver Stimmung des Großherzoges berichtet, so auch später in den Memoiren der Daisy von Pless. "

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Friedrich_VI._(Mecklenburg)

Kind regards, 

Sandro

And re the heading: Friedrich Franz IV was of course grandduke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, not of Mecklenburg-Strelitz (at least at the time of the pic, he was not - he ruled Mecklenburg-Strelitz only from February to November 1918, following the suicide of Adolf Friedrich IV). 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

3 hours ago, Bayern said:

GdC26 ,Many thanks for share your magnificent photos! It will take to me many pleasants hours of analysis .

Pleasure Bayern, that is what the forum should be about. There are more in the thread on the Kleindekoration des Schwarzen Adlerordens in the orders and decorations section.

4 hours ago, graham said:

Alfred von Schlieffen

Where is the Kleindekoration? He is wearing the breaststar.

4 hours ago, Utgardloki said:

If you know pictures of the Kleindekoration des Schwarzen Adlerordens in wear feel free to post them. 

 

 

Those are not particularly hard to find.

2 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

I agree... Big Willi's Flugel Adjutant has it on quite often, which makes a comparison with little Willi interesting... the tinsel is not to be seen... or out of camera...

It makes it more plausible to me that the Kings/Kaiser were still big on ceremony and tradition, whereas the Crown Princes were soldiers, commanding armies, with less time and interest for such finery... the 2 pics I found of Rupprecht's staff show a very "dressed for work" bunch, none of the shiny entourage that followed the Kaiser and Bavarian king.

I think this may be fairly specific to the ranking individual concerned - one of the pics I posted shows what seems to be an adjutant to a unit or general with a sash, another shows Prinz Alfons with what appears to be a personal adjutant. At the same time, the pics I have of Wilhelm II of Württemberg show no adjutants with sash or aguilettes, and neither do the pics I have of  Rupprecht.

19 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Yeah... we are comparing willis ?

?

But the pics I posted earlier today show plenty, and not just for Willi.