GdC26

On 11/08/2022 at 19:40, speedytop said:

OK, and I say once more, that it is the SA-Wehrabzeichen.

 

Wikipedia: "On 15 February 1935, Hitler decreed that the badge be officially recognized. It was thereafter issued in three grades (bronze, silver, and gold). No longer was the physical fitness badge to be awarded only to SA members."

 

Please see the picture, and compare it with a Reiterabzeichen.

The "Reiterabzeichen" or "Sportabzeichen" in the drawing has a pronounced protrusion on top that is broader than the vertical line underneath it. Its shape reminds me of that of the Hessen Kriegerehrenzichen, but I did not find any immediate evidence that Throta (who was born in Sachsen-Altenburg) received it or was a citizen of Hessen in 1917/18.

Like Simi, I'm also not sold on hte KvK1 theory. I initially liked the thought of a St. Olav (not an uncommon interwar award for ranking Kriegsmarine officers, and one that would probably have fitted his rank of Korvettenkapitän from 1937 onwards) but on checking believe the commander's star of that order is too large to fit the bill of the cross depicted. 

drawings tend to focus on faces, and are not always a good source for identification of orders and decorations. Unless someone finds an actual picture of von Trotha properly showing his left lower breast, I guess this will all remain conjecture.

Kind regards,

 Sandro

There is plenty of information on the SEHO if you simply search the forum or the web, but to answer your questions: the SEHO ceased to be awarded as a stately award in November 1918, but thereafter continued to be awarded as a houseorder.

See German Wiki, coupled with Google translate if needed: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzoglich_Sachsen-Ernestinischer_Hausorden

Kind regards,

Sandro

2 hours ago, chuck said:

Very nice and valuable record of what companies sold.

 

chuck 

Many thanks Chuck, and my pleasure to share it.

58 minutes ago, chuck said:

For Comparisons a rather low-key period news advertisement for the company dated 17, October 1907, Berliner und Handles-Zeitung, page 14.

 

Regards, 

Chuck

That is a nice one, too. It shows that hte shop at Friedrichstraße is in fact hte main one, and that the Under den Linden shop is merely a branch (Zweig-Geschäft). To me, that is a valuable piece of information I hadn't seen before.

Here is a picture of Friedrichstraße store front, borrowed from the web.

Kind regards,

 Sandro

Absolutely my pleasure GMU.

Kind regards,

Sandro

Thanks Vince, glad you like it.

Kind regards,

 Sandro 

Just in. I hope those interested in phaleristics find it useful even if the orders shown are not lifelike photographs but either paintings or repainted photos.

Scanning the catalogue I couldn't find a publication date, but based on the inclusion of the Südwestafrika-Denkmünze I'd place that between 1907 and 1914.

The text on the opening page could be read to suggest that the booklet was issued on the occasion of the opening of J.H. Werner's shop at Friedrichstraße 173 in Berlin, but the venerable Sauerwald (Königlich Preussische Ordensjuweliere, page 145), seems to suggest that J.H. Werner operated shops at both Under den Linden and Friedrichstraße from 1891 onwards.

Kind regards,

Sandro    

Let's breathe some life into this interesting and now slightly dusty thread with a scan of (the second page of) an invoice from the estate of former Reichskanzler Michaelis, detaining Godet-Werner's prices for the sets listed. 

Unfortunately, page 1 of the invoice is missing, so its date is unclear, but Godet and Werner seem to have merged/started their cooperation in 1929 and Michaelis died in 1936, so the invoice will presumably date between 1929 and 1936 (and likely from between 1929 and 1933/34, as Michaelis will likely have had limited use for decorations of German states thereafter). 

See: https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12210 on the Godet/Werner cooperation/takeover.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Michaelis for further details on Michaelis, whose estate was sold by Carsten Zeige in 2001.

Kind regards,

 Sandro

3 hours ago, Matthew Macleod said:

Am I the only one with this problem?

No, but it shouldn't block your ability to read the post - just select the text with your mouse and you can red it (and react).

Kind regards,

 Sandro

1 hour ago, BlackcowboyBS said:

Hi Nick,

first a huge Thank you, for your time and effort on this side. Many people forget that the internet is not free at all, it allways generates cost on some points and this has to be covered. 

I am in for a small yearly fee or open to advertising or thinks like that. So when my new book on Hannover will be available I will certainly put an advertise here. 

I am sure that we all together could help covering your costs. And the suggestion of 1812overture could be changed into an digital badge, we had the same in the SDA Forum, named promotor of the forum, it is in silver and gold (25 and 50 € per year). This might be the easiest way for you to cover the costs. Why don't you give this a try? I would willingly become a promotor of this Forum. 

+1

Nick, 

I, for one, will be happy to pay a reasonable annual membership fee to keep up the site in its current, high quality form.Advertising is not a problem for me, nor is offering merchandise on the site.

Have you given any thought to offering paying membership privileges/packages? I would need to think about what that could look like for this site, but I've seen it done in other areas (modeling, for example)? And is there mileage in cooperation with military museums in the UK or continental Europe (sponorship in return for, for example, research capacity)?

Sorry if this is all still a bit vague - I'll give it further through and let you know if more concrete ideas pop up.

Kind regards,

Sandro

1 hour ago, gjw said:

 

 

I've never however, have seen the eagle completely inside the disk as shown.  The ones I've seen have the feathers extended beyond the disk not inside of it.  I know there are dedication disks on the reverse on some I've seen.

 

One of the tragedies of our time: the confusion of opinion with fact.

Which is why - next to handling good, accepted pieces with solid provenance - good references are a critical part of the hobby and a necessary investment - they show pages and pages of accepted contemporary variations, of Militärdienstzeichen for example, and even a few with eagles that fit within the center medallion of the cross ...

BTW, the eagles on the long service cross of the 1st republic are very different to those of the threat-starter (no golden Vließ Kollane, for starters, no scepter and Reichsapfel, no crowns or pendillen and the republic's shield in the center .....) (picture courtesy of Richard Dawkins)

Kind regards,

 Sandro

For anyone seriously interested In imperial Austrian-Hungarian decorations:

https://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=4715040&Language=de

https://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=47567520&Language=en

https://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=3370752&Language=en

Not flawless but close enough, and in any event better than some of the publicly available sources.

And available in English for the price of only a few costly fakes .....

Kind regards, 

Sandro

16 hours ago, gjw said:

Hello all, seeing how this year is the 70th Jubilee for Elizabeth II, I thought it might be nice to pay tribute to a monarch who was on the throne almost as long.

 

I thought it would be nice to make a display to honor the old gentleman.  

 

Best,

 

Greg

 

 

Nice thought, but you do know the "old gentleman", as you call him, managed to lose not just about every war he fought over the course of his long reign, but also his empire, right? 

Kind regards, 

 Sandro

RedNoseScout, (or Erik, as I understand), 

I understand your disappointment on the lack of applause, but this is forum I the tradition of Rick Research, so we deal in facts here. Based on the discussions so far, on the two badges you presented ihere recently (the Ppopov badge and the one under discussion here), I believe these facts are as follows:

• Both badges are contemporary originals (dixit Enzo, Tomas, Sandro);
• However, that is not what defines their value: that value lies in the engravings (dixit RedNoseScout, Enzo, Tomas, Sandro);
• Moreover, Tomas has handled the Popov badge and considered it bad, along with others who examined it at the time. The badge went unsold.
• The engraving on the Popov badge seems to be done by hand, the engraving on the badge shown here may be done by machine (dixit Simius Rex). Either way, even if both are hand engraved, hand engraving is not a final authenticator (disxit Enzo, Tomas, Sandro).
• The badge presented here shows exntsive recent sanding marks on the back that eradicated all patina. Those  require explanation. One explanation could be that the badge was prepared for engraving (dixit Sandro).
• The engravings of both badges seem to contain little "glitches" that may be there on purpose, to avoid criminal liability for forgery (the "ö" in this badge, the "Serg. (if that is what is says as per RedNoseScout, Enzo and Kasle) in the other (dixit Sandro)).
• the historic context of the Popov badge requires explanation, especially if you, Enzo and Kale are correct on the "Serg.", because aviation iwas in its infancy in 1908 (the year mentioned in the engraving); there were few aviators and most were well known (dixit Tomas); and Russia and Austria were enemies in WWI, so it is hard to see why a 1917 Austrian aviation badge would bear a dedication to an (as yet: unknown) Russian aviation pioneer, or one that only started flying in 1909. 

Vince can speak for himself, but I think his conclusion was more cautious than you make it out to be.

His exact words were:

Hmmm, very interesting discussion. My knowledge of K.u.K badges is fairly weak, and I tend to avoid making any pronouncements due to the level of fakery. However, I'm going with my original feeling about this one, that the engraving is period and not some shambolic faker's attempt at enhancing value. Why this curious engraving is on this particular badge is certainly mysterious, but should not be dismissed outright.

And whether Enzo's case and badge are mismatched is hardly relevant to the discussion of the badges you presented (but again Enzo can speak to that if he wishes).

You and the dealer you refer to are absolutely correct that the best way to authenticate a piece is in hand inspection. In that sense, the forum is indeed limiting,. The problem with that argument for the Popov badge though is that it WAS inspected by Tomas and others when it hit the market (over) a decade ago, and was dismissed then as bad, by Tomas and others (as Tomas stated, it went unsold).

On your last point, I don't consider or hold myself out as an expert on anything, but try to apply research, logic and reason to see if things add up. In this case, for the reasons set out above, I don't think they do, but as always. I'm absolutely open to rational debate.

And as said, I fully understand your disappointment at the lack of applause: we all have made collecting-mistakes (God knows I have), or at least have had pieces in our collection criticized (God knows I have), but that does not define us. What defines us is how we deal with that. 

If there are points I have overlooked in the summary of facts above, or that could help explain matters  feel absolutely free to raise them . This is an open debate, as far as I'm concerned, in the spirit of Rick Research: fact based, and with some humor if possible.

There are no Gods here, and no hired hands - just people trying to learn.

Kind regards,

Sandro

Nobody forced you to participate Luftmensch, and your contributions have mostly been personal attacks on those who disagreed with your central thesis, viz., "they don't engrave like they used to".

So if you don't care to engage on the issues being debated (like the sanding marks on the back of this badge, or the "Ö" that casts doubt on the attribution to Fekete) and instead continue to prefer to cut into another member who dares to disagree with you, then maybe this indeed is not the forum for you.

Plenty of alternatives without "Gentleman" in the name, so back to Facebook I say.

Sincerely yours, 

Sandro

I'm a bit with Tomas on this: not sure it would actually bring us back to the beginning.

The badge itself is fairly common, its value lies in the engraving. The facts, then  remain as Enzo and Tomas have stated (real badge, introduced in 1917;  hand engraving in Russian; no Russians flew in the Austrian airfare in WW I; no discernible connection between the 1908 dated dedication and the badge or Austria).

Whilst RedNoseScout is correct that there were frequent contacts between aviation ioneers in the first decade of the 20th century, there were not that many of them in 1908, And Tomas has noted that when the badge entered the market it went unsold and tha those who inspected it in hand dismissed it as bad. 

And then there are the small glitches in the engravings of the two badges under discussion, here and in a parallel thread, that seem to stand in the way of postive attribution: here, the middle name, in the other thread the "ö" that renders the attribution to Fedeke speculative. 

All of this could of course be coincidence,  but at the very least, gives (me) reason for pause. 

Kind regards, 

 Sandro

55 minutes ago, Simius Rex said:

 

The photos posted by the OP and enlarged on the desktop are more than sufficient to plainly see the glaring and unmistakable characteristics of modern rotary engraving. 

 

If these glaring details of the engraving of the OP's badge escapes your capability of recognizing, then I would suggest that you may be dismally unqualified to intelligently comment on this subject.  Instead, you should try re-reading my post, studying my photo, and maybe you might learn a thing or two about spotting modern rotary engravings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Makes sense (as Simi's comments generally do). I think this also explains why the back  of the wreath looks like it has been freshly sanded, and lacks all patina - compare with the badge posted by Enzo.

Kind regards,

Sandro

1 hour ago, RedNoseScout said:

GD Santos.  I can live w ur uncharitable remarks bc I am in an inquiry.  The evidence is what it is.  Inquiries r never personal.  They r for revealing the truth.  Even if it includes uninvited  and inappropriate remarks to satiate ur ego.  If I learn more from this site great. If not that’s ok too.  U could have commented one that fabulous badge or the background info on Fekete - but I just keep getting a sense u r going to keep knocking me down. I’m not afraid from making a mistake and learning about it on this site.   No one cares about ur opinion about me - I certainly don’t. Nor does my publisher.   I am interested in learning the truth about what I hold in my hand.   Pl don’t get hooked bc I asked a question or make an assertion on the number of  case engraved badges.  Bottom line is there are not many original ones.   If u stick to the data - I might learn  how smart u really are rather than how important u r.   U certainly have been useful on Popov if again in an unchivalrous way with me. The value is in his the story.   Ur link u sent opened me to a world of useful data and new contacts.  Now if u care to add on Fekete’s story as a living being, I would be honored.  There r others reading and watching.  I hope u will be more useful moving the conversation forward.   Thank u.  

Dear RedNoseScout,

As I noted in the threat on the - let's call it the - Popov badge you posted, reading is an art. However personal you may want to take it, "Another sales pitch. I'm going to bed .... ? .... feel free to wake me up when something exiting happens ......" is a comment about your posts, which are filled with hyperbole like "I know of only four case engraved pilot badges of the central powers ....  Two are pictured bellow." but tend to be thin on facts.

You want to assess my knowledge, feel free to check out my posts and reputation on GMiC.

By the way, in case you didn't notice - you may want to use some of the royalties from your upcoming books on a new keyboard, because your current one seems to be malfunctioning (try as you might, you can't type my name right and your message seems ..... garbled)? 

Kind regards (we're after all all gentlemen here, even if not all of us seem to be aware of it), 

Sandro

Another sales pitch. I'm going to bed .... ? .... feel free to wake me up when something exiting happens ......

29 minutes ago, RedNoseScout said:

So it was Dec 1908 ? thank u

As said, reading is an art. Tomas just confirmed that he mistyped, and that it is in fact December 1909, as the Wikipedia link he added confirms. In a free Google translation of:

"В 1909 году он уехал во Францию, где стал работать механиком в авиашколе, созданной братьями Райт под Парижем, что позволяло ему проводить целые дни на аэродромеЖювизи под Парижем. Получив первые уроки лётного мастерства у шеф-пилота и первого ученика школы Райтов графа Шарля де Ламбера, француза, сына русского подданного, он 13 декабря 1909 года совершил свой первый самостоятельный вылет на аэроплане «Райт». Первый полёт длился недолго: из за неправильного движения рулями Попов опустился слишком резко и довольно сильно расшибся. Пострадал и аэроплан. Это, однако, не обескуражило Николая Евграфовича. Через месяц, оправившись от ран и ушибов, он вновь устремился в небо. "

"In 1909, he left for France, where he began working as a mechanic in an aviation school set up by the Wright brothers near Paris, which allowed him to spend whole days at the Juvisy airfield near Paris. Having received his first flying lessons from the chief pilot and the first student of the Wright school, Count Charles de Lambert, a Frenchman, the son of a Russian citizen, on December 13, 1909, he made his first solo flight on a Wright airplane. The first flight did not last long: due to incorrect movement of the rudders, Popov sank too sharply and hurt himself quite badly. The aircraft was also damaged. This, however, did not discourage Nikolai Evgrafovich. A month later, having recovered from wounds and bruises, he again rushed into the sky."

But hey, what are facts for if not to bend them to fit the story ....? 

And why actually read what those heretics say anyway ...?

Kind regards,

 Sandro

18 minutes ago, tifes said:

 

 

To Sandro : in 1908 he was just a mechanic. He flew from December 1909 (without license; license issued in March 1910 till May 1910)

 

 

 

Thanks Tomas.

I was referring to the sentence

"He flew solo for the first time in December 1908"

in one of your earlier posts, but gather you mistyped. Which makes  the "1908" reference on the badge something of a riddle again. and the badge itself an article of faith ....

Kind regards,

 Sandro

2 hours ago, Luftmensch said:

No, Sandro, but maybe an  Austrian Luftschiffer had a postwar association with a  French airshipper, who also happened to be a white Russian. 

 

I have insignia in my collection from Luftschiffer Vereine that had contact with friends and former enemies who were also airshippers.  They visited and socialised--yes, socialised with an "s"--drank much beer and occasionally exchanged gifts.

 

As for 1908...we may never be able to satisfy your desire to tie all data points into a neat little package!

 

 

"Maybe" .....?  And "we may never be able to .... tie all data points" ? Thanks for proving my point about the speculative nature of your assertions on this particular badge better than I ever could, dear Luftmensch. The known facts, however, are as stated earlier: 

"1) the Luftfaherabzeichen is original;

2) The engraving is done by hand."

The rest, as we all seem to acknowledge, is speculation and belief, at least on the info before us.

I drew the same conclusion several posts ago, so there we are: full circle ....

Kind regards, 

 Sandro

Ps- had you actually read any of Tomas' posts, you might have noted that December 1908 was the date of Popov's first flight. For you, that is probably further proof of your beliefs, for me, it hardly is.

2 hours ago, Luftmensch said:

 

The Shroud of Turin?  You're keeping an open mind?  You don't know?   It's a stretch?   I'm simply fascinated  by the subtle and shifting ways you express your objectivity, Sandro.

 

 

 

 

 

I know, reading and logical reasoning are arts not mastered by all.

Still, that is what this forum is all about - drawing conclusions on the basis of confirmed facts and logic, whilst keeping an open mind.

It's a juggle, but you perhaps you can try it some time.

It seems this threat has run its course (RedNoseScout and you have not contributed a single relevant fact for a while now), but it will be my pleasure to engage again when you have anything to contribute beyond "they don't engarave like they used to".

Oh, on logical though, regarding your last point in response to Tomas' observations - I'm confused, so your contention is that airship steersmen in French service in WWI were given the Austrian Luftfahrerabzeichen?  And all of that relates to 1908 how? The mind boggles ....

Kind regards as always,

 Sandro 

6 hours ago, Luftmensch said:

 

I'm impressed with your spelling ability.  You said:

 

"...concluding that the engraving is original seems a stretch. And this wouldn’t be the first original item that has been embellished to enhance its market value."
 

Leaving poor Occam out of it, I ask that you please show us another original Luftfahrerabz. embellished to enhance its market value.  

 

If you can't, to which original items are you referring that you think are germane to this discussion?

 

If you can't show us these, then why is "concluding that the engraving is original...a stretch"?   On what do you base your opinion?

 

Poor Occam again?   Did he collect Austrian badges?

 

And in the absence of anything but your open-minded negative bias, I think the very existence of this fascinating badge tips the scales. 

 

 

Here’s a shocker: I may not be able to show you a second example of the Shroud of Turin, yet many scientists believe, on the evidence available, that the one example that is known is a medieval forgery. Only the faithful think differently.

Hyperbole aside, your approach to scientific debate is fundamentally flawed. There are many pieces on the market that have been spiced up through engravings and by other means. That goes for Austrian decorations as well (just have a look at the many dedicated Austrian, English, Italian etc. medals on the market, for example, some legit, some doubtful, many hand engraved). You don’t recognize that practice, I fear for your collection.

Anyway, it is clear you’re not a man of your word - I did what you asked (acknowledge that I don’t know) and you’re not impressed …. ?

As said, time to move on. If you’re the current or past  owner of this badge (which given your attitude, strikes me as distinctly possible): I hope you enjoy it, and can forgive those of lesser faith.

Kind regards,

Sandro

Ok, so this is now a glorified book-ad. Indeed, time to move on as Tomas said.
 

Personally, as a skeptic, I though Tomas “first flight in December 1908” point might capture the attention of tho faithful, and give them something to examine further, but I see I’m wrong on that, and we’re now in “buy my book and all will be revealed” land. ?
 

Given the quality of input provided so far, and it’s speculative nature, I’ll probably pass on that (my loss, I know). However, do feel free to wake me up if there is more info on the provenance or history of the badge.
 

Kind regards,

Sandro

19 minutes ago, Luftmensch said:

 

You know what would impress the heck out of me, beyond your superior knowledge in Austro-Hungarian badges, is to hear you say, simply....

 

"I don't know."

Indeed I don’t, and neither do you, Luftmensch. All you have is faith, faith I am indeed lacking.

Kind regards,

Sandro

ps 1 - it’s “Occam’s raZor”. I wasn’t going to raise that, but now that you insist on repeating the error in a reference that somehow seems to upset you, let’s at least ensure proper spelling going forward.

ps 2 - now that I have impressed “the heck out of” you, take deep breath and see this discussion for what it is: just a clash of ideas and perspectives (even if some are indeed better founded than others).

ps 3 - research into the Austro-Hungarian/Russian connection might start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_pioneers Rather than basking in faith, I spent some time going to the list and found no obvious connections, but with time and patience, who knows. As said repeatedly, I’m keeping an open mind (another way of saying “I don’t know”?), even if I’m skeptical.