GdC26
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Posts posted by GdC26
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1 hour ago, Luftmensch said:
Also, if anyone believes Occam's Rasor / the simplest explanation is that this was made to deceive, then show me ONE OTHER original Luftfahrerabz. with a quality engraving that is demonstrably fake. ONE OTHER....
Ps - oddly, Occams razor does not involve extra points for emphasis ... ?
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26 minutes ago, RedNoseScout said:
Given the alignment of facts - the pilot name, the start year of flying career, and the forensics of the badge and engraving itself - i assert that this was likely a postwar engraving.
I agree with that, - the question is post which war, and how long post that war .....
26 minutes ago, RedNoseScout said:More importantly, with all the information about this engraved aircrew badge, would that stop any of you from wanting to own it?
Based on what is before us - yes it would.
1 hour ago, Luftmensch said:Also, if anyone believes Occam's Rasor / the simplest explanation is that this was made to deceive, then show me ONE OTHER original Luftfahrerabz. with a quality engraving that is demonstrably fake. ONE OTHER....
As already explained, that is not how this works - there is no presumption of originality, originality has to be proven.
Unless new evidence is adduced, I think we've gone full circle and will now restart the loop ....
Kind regards,
Sandro
26 minutes ago, RedNoseScout said:0 -
7 hours ago, Luftmensch said:
Originality of badge is proven. The quality of the engraving suggests it was not done recently.
In my 40 years of collecting I've never seen fakers adding quality old-world engraving to original badges. Especially one in obscure Russian to obscure personages.
There are easier ways to make a profit.
Given a choice between saying this is an attempt to deceive
OR
this is an authentic presentation piece we don't yet understand, I vote for the latter.
2 hours ago, Bayern said:Hello ,The badge bears the K for Emperor Charles . Charles was Emperor after the death of Emperor Francis Joseph in November of 1916, then the bage was made from December 1916 until November 1918 . By other part all the Gentlemen speaks of a Russian but forgets a possible Galician Popov , Galitzia and Lodomeria were a Crown land of the Empire and their inhabitants were Polish and Ucrainans and Ucrainans used Cyrillic Alphabet . Finally , Why not a Bulgarian Popov ,after all Austria Hungary and Bulgaria were closer and in 1915 ,Allies
I think Enzo, Tomas and I are talking facts, not engaging on speculation about what might have been. The facts are as Enzo, Tomas and I have stated, and they don’t confirm the authenticity of the dedication (which in itself has two issues requiring explanation: the reference to a famous Russian early aviation pioneer and the reference to the year 1908, a time when (international) aviation was still in its infancy, and international meets had not started yet. A further issue, of course, is why that engraving would appear on an Austrian aviation badge issued some 8-10 years later).
The rest, frankly, are matters of speculation, preference and belief. As said, a lot of things are possible, but absent further proof, concluding that the engraving is original seems a stretch. And this wouldn’t be the first original item that has been embellished to enhance its market value.
I’m keeping an open mind, but on the evidence presented Occam’s razor leads me to believe for now that the latter is the more plausible thesis. Let’s see what further factual and verifiable evidence the owner or others adduce in support of the alternative view.
Kind regards,
Sandro
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1 hour ago, Luftmensch said:
Is there anything to suggest a K.u.K. aviator did not give this as a gift after the war to a Russian FORMER enemy, and someone whom the giver might have had a pre-war association with?...and have the dedication done in the language of the recipient? After the war former enemy flyers did a lot of socialising, and renewing of pre-war friendships (especially among aviation pioneers) and mementos & keepsakes were often exchanged......
Many things are possible, of course, but I not sure that that is how this works - assume it is good until proven otherwise. Normally, it is the other way around ..... "buy the item, not the story"?
Unless there is some sound evidence on the history and provenance of this piece, for reasons stated by Tomas and Enzo, it should be approached with a healthy dosis of skepticism in my view. Especially since Mr. Popov was not exactly a nobody in Russian aviation history, from the looks of it, and so I gather, did not fly in the Russian air service during WWI, and no other connection with Austria has so far been established.
Enzo's summary of the evidence before us strikes me as accurate: we have a 1917 original military aircrew badge with a hand-engraved deduction, made out to a famous Russian civilian flight engineer/pioneer to commemorate something that purportedly happened in 1908 (and thus has nothing to do with the badge). Without further information/proof (on the giver, on the event, on Popov 1908's connection with Austria, etc.).
What doesn't help is that the first international aeronautical week took place in 1909, the second in 1911 - so that avenue does not seem to be open, either:
https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/1909-first-major-international-flying-meet
https://feefhs.org/index.php/resource/russia-blitz-first-aviators
I'll keep an open mind, of course, but for the reasons set out above, originality will have to be proven in my view, and cannot be assumed.
Kind regards,
Sandro
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6 hours ago, tifes said:
Hi,
well, I would say…lost in translation?. I read it: „Ни. Еврч. Попову 1908 г.“, which means (to) „Ni(kolay) Yev(g)r(afovi)ch Popov 1908 g.“ („1908 g.“ stand for in year 1908, that´s correct). Nikolay Yevgrafovich Popov was a pioneer Russian aviator. His interest in flying could be dated back to 1908 when he started as mechanic in flight school of Wright brothers in Paris. He flew for the first time in 1909 and became a pilot. He returned to Russia but consequently he almost fatally crashed in 1910, survived but he couldn’t fly anymore. He moved back to France. During WWI, he served as a navigator in an airship of the French Air Force. After the war he moved to Côte d’Azur and committed suicide in 1929 as suffered from excruciating back pain as a result of his plane crash in 1910.
Badge itself it´s original piece (no doubt about it) whether it was worn during WW1 by some AH flight observer is unknown but Popov has nothing to do with it and that´s also sure. Popov was on other side, with the Triple Entente and never had any business with AH Luftfahrtruppen. It might be that somebody (maybe old Austrian aviator friend from pre-1914 period?) gave it to him as gift in years after WW1 or there might be another story.
Best,
Tomas
Or it might be a well engraved fantasy to boost value, I guess ……?
Great research, thanks Tomas.
Kind regards,
Sandro
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Not hard to do, and a courtesy to GJW: we are, after all, all gentlemen here?
Kind regards,
Sandro
8 hours ago, RedNoseScout said:
Sorry GDC 26. I’m still feeling my way around this forum but I wish to respond to your points and appreciate your comments:The book has a life of its own and has become my mistress - now turning into 11 volumes on Vintage Aviation Memorabilia. I couldn’t do the work justice on German Aviation alone given the significance of the other Central Powers in the war effort and the quality material I was able to put together for this project - as u can see from the above. It is not going to be like any of the existing textbooks out there.
The first volume is exclusively on Austro Hungarian aviation and is nearing completion. I fell in love with that theater of the war and the bravery and courage of the pilots in air crew and most importantly their stories.
I also appreciate the feedback that I get from everyone on the site as I am starting to use it more because sometimes I do make mistakes! As I am about to admit. ?
i am getting on average of less than 5 hours sleep while still working full time. I meant to type in Leopold Urban but being a dyslexic I typed Otto bc I am working on another story for the series and made a mistake - sorry! I would edit and correct the name of the site allowed me to. Maybe u can help me on how to do that ?
Leopold Urban was w Flks 7, 16, 17, and 53.
His badge is stunningly beautiful - in my opinion it ranks up there w Godet’s AH pilot badges. Those Godet AH Pilot badges will be published in the first volume too including one never published before - the White Swan - the finest known surviving combat-worn AH Godet sample. The volumes will be in English and German.As for caution GD, I get ur concerns, but the K.u.K. Pilots were some of the best and the book will include Gordon Brumowski’s case engraved pilot badge (I am in touch w his delightful grandchildren) and Oskar Fekete’s (Flik 58 Commander) csse engraved pilot badge too. If u like AH hat pins, it will include samples not included in Christian Reiterer’s wonderful work. He’s been helpful to me too in my research.
These volumes r not about quantity but quality and nothing gets published unless authenticated and real. Fortunately, I have a fabulous network across the planet that I am working with and hope to expand it here.
These volumes are not just about badges but uniforms, helmets, hats, paper, real aircraft canvass (including items from James Baldwin’s and Norm Flayderman’s collections) propellers, original bombs, unit banners, autographs, oil paintings, posters, pilot licenses, commander and pilot group sets, bronze sculptures, medallions, furniture, advertisements, photo albums, including unpublished K.u.K and Zeppelin photo albums. The list is almost endless. One volume will be dedicated to CP aviation stickpins alone for the folks who r really into the coolest and rarest stickpins. ?
But it’s not just about the eye candy but the research that brings their amazing stories back to life - with many new discoveries- add in price trends over the last 20 years for the collector and investors. It’s all strictly aviation related.Sorry for writing so much but I can see this thread has increased in attention which is good - I really like what GJI displayed! Great job.
So GD, I’m looking forward to promoting the relationship between and among us. Thank u all for ur comments.
Hello RedNoseScout,
Well done on promoting your book project, which if real and thorough, sounds like it might be a good addition to the literature on the topic.
Can I suggest we stop highjacking GJW's thread, and that you open your own thread on your book project?
Not hard to do, and a courtesy to GJW: we are, after all, all gentlemen here?
Kind regards,
Sandro
Ok, somehow my post got messed up. What I meant to write was:
Hello RedNoseScout,
Well done on promoting your book project, which if real and thorough, sounds like it might be a good addition to the literature on the topic.
Can I suggest we stop highjacking GJW's thread, and that you open your own thread on your book project?
Not hard to do, and a courtesy to GJW: we are, after all, all gentlemen here?
Kind regards,
Sandro
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I think some caution is in order: see RedNoseScout’s contribution to the thread below.
@RedNoseScout: what happened to the German WWI aviation book you said you were working on in the thread below:
“I am putting together a book on my collection. It is strictly WW1 German Aviation”?
And why highjack someone else’s thread to present your items?
BTW, do you mean Karl Urban: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Urban_(aviator) who, as it happened, had an Otto Jaeger as observer?
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Christian is correct.
Kind regards,Sandro
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Kleine Dekoration zum Großkreuz des SEHO"s, perhaps? King Ferdinand of Bulgaria had one - with swords, of course (pic and description ex Zeige).
The new shot posted above shows what could be lions, and the ribbon w
in both pics could be a match (unlike the ribbon for the Greek order of the Redemeer, which is blue and white).
Kind regards,
Sandro
Herzoglich Sachsen-Ernestinischer Hausorden,
Kleindekoration zum Großkreuz mit Schwertern "E" Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha aus dem Besitz des Zaren Ferdinand I. von Bulgarien. Kreuz Gold emailliert, Kreuzarme mit kleinen Chips, durchbrochene Krone, am Dreiecksband, im Verleihungsetui mit goldgeprägter Krone. Bekanntlich war die Firma Rothe in Wien der Hoflieferant des Zaren und so wurde auch diese Dekoration in Wien angefertigt. Provenienz: "Collection of King Ferdinand I. of Bulgaria", Sothebys London 1998 Los 231.
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Dear all,
I'm composing a list of the awards of Pier Ruggero Piccio, Italy's third air ace of WWI.
What I have so far is:
- 1911/1912: Commemorative Medal of the Italo-Turkish war
- 1911/1912: Bronze Medaglia al Valore Militare (Medal for Military Valor)
- May to August 1915: Bronze Medaglia al Valore Militare
- 18 October 1916: Silver Medaglia al Valore Militare: First award
- 5 May 1918: Gold Medaglia al Valore Militare
- June 1918: Silver Medaglia al Valore Militare: Second award
- 17 May 1919: Officer of the Military Order of Savoy (A.D. - Aeronautical; Knight: 28 February 1918)
- 20 November 1924: Commander of the Order of the S.S. Maurice and Lazarus (Knight: 11 June 1922)
- 29 September 1935: Grand Cross of the Order of the Crown of Italy (Grand Officer: 28 January 1926; Commander: 5 September 1923; Officer: 17 May 1919; Knight: 31 December 1914)
- Commander of the French Legion d'Honneur
- (March) 1923: Polish order Virtuti Militari 4th class
- Silver military long-distance air navigation award, second degree
Please, can you help me complete the list? And does anyone have the number for the Virtuti Militari 4th class awarded to Pier Ruggiero Piccio, please?
Many thanks for your help as always.
Kind regards,
Sandro
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16 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:
Looks like a MVK ribbon to me. I have never seen the ribbon of the China medal being worn in the Knopfloch.
+ 1
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9 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:
Very cool bar, what is the decoration in last place?
Italy, Order of the Crown, knight, from the looks of it?
Kind regards,
Sandro
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The clasp could be Spanish.
Kind regards,
Sandro
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49 minutes ago, Elmar Lang said:
The section about the Mexican campaign, for instance, is a fantastic synthesis of the subject, yet giving all those informations, to be found only consulting many rare to find books.
+1
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2 hours ago, Glenn J said:
Guys,
you are all very kind and your comments are very much appreciated. I think the easiest way ahead is this: If you pm me with tour email addresses, I will send you the entire site as a zipped file and then you will have all the information you need.
Regards
Glenn
Glenn,
That is most generous. I’ll send you my e-mail later tonight. That said, my offer stands should you change your mind and decide to relaunch the site.
Kind regards,
Sandro
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11 hours ago, Glenn J said:
Hi Sandro,
after not updating the site for some years, l decided to cease paying the server fees and monthly software “enhancements” for my dated site. I have of course everything on my hard drive and should you need anything, please feel free to ask.
Regards
Glenn
Hi Glenn,
Many thanks, very much appreciated. I know your site has many fans, so if there are things people can do to keep it in the air, please let us know. I, for one, would not mind paying a reasonable annual subscription to keep it open.
Kind regards,
Sandro
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A dear friend, fellow member and fellow fan of the site altered me to the fact that Glenn's fantastic site http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk appears to be down.
Glenn, is that a temporary issue or should we be worried?
Kind regards,
Sandro
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1 hour ago, hucks216 said:
It looks good to me with a strong signature of Kastner-Kirdorf, and the date fits which is always a good start!
Many thanks, hucks216, much appreciated.
Further views invited.
Kind regards,
Sandro
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Can I please solicit views on the authenticity (or otherwise) of the preliminary award document for award of the RK to Walter Grabman shown in the pics below?
Pics posted with kind permission of the seller.
Many thanks in advance, kind regards,
Sandro
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1 hour ago, Deutschritter said:
Dear Komtur, can you possibly name the four neck orders and the extra little medal on Robert Joseph Esser's (1833-1920) jackett? Thank you!
I hope Komtur doesn't mind but what I think I see are:
- Preussen, Roter Adler Orden Komturkreuz
- Preussen, Kronenorden Komturkreuz
- Italien, Kronenorden Komturkreuz
- ? (looks to be a Russian order?)
- The little medal on the lapel looks to be the Mitgliedsabzechen der Kaiser Wilhelm Gesellschaft zur Förderung der Wissenschaften -
Compliments to Komtur for a great threat.
Kind regards,
Sandro
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7 minutes ago, christerd said:
Have this photo in my collection, could anyone tell of its a Gotha 242 Glider ?
Must be quite unusual , I haven’t found another ?
It indeed looks like a (disassembled) Gotha Go 242, probably indeed the glider version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotha_Go_242
Pics of that aircraft are uncommon, but they do come by occasionally. Nice pic, congrats.
Kind regards,
Sandro
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23 hours ago, Triadoro said:
You seem to feel that you are the arbiter of what constitutes the Way Of The Forum (???) but I'm afraid I fail to understand where you derive your authority in that regard.
I call it as I see it. When somebody who is struggling to conduct challenging research is sent-off in a myriad of dead-end directions, I feel an obligation to help put them back on track. Regards.
.
Dear Triadoro,
Your aims seem laudable, your methods less so: this is after all a Gentleman's club, there is a hint in the name ....
As regards research, suum cuique, there is rarely just one way that leads to the light, and it is clear that many members are trying to help Iulian in his efforts attribute the chain.
Kind regards,
Sandro
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5 hours ago, Triadoro said:
Hello. Back on September 30th, in my first contribution on this thread, I provided you with 3 solid leads and links on how and where to conduct your research due the large number of high civilian awards: Saxon Court & State Handbooks, Brunswick State Handbooks for the officers cross, and Austro-Hungarian Court & State Handbooks.
If you had listened to Komtur's simple advice and adhered to the research-plan I outlined a week ago, you would have remained on the right track without wasting a lot of time on distracting, dead-end advice. If you get back on track and stay the course without becoming distracted and allowing yourself to be mislead, you might actually succeed in this project. Regards.
Not sure why you feel the need to take or make this personal, but whatever the reason, this is not the way of this Forum.
Kind regards,
Sandro
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On 21/09/2021 at 13:09, Christian1962 said:
He was a long time Aide de Camp of Franz Joseph. Therefore he received the Franz Josef Kreuz. I accidentially met a Countess Hoyos last week and she told me it is said that he was one of the first to see Kronprinz Rudolf after his suicide in Mayerling.
Regards
Christian
Very interesting information indeed, many thanks for sharing, Christian.
Kind regards,
Sandro
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Austro-Hungarian Engraved Aircrew Badge of Anton Sergeyvevich Popov
in Austro-Hungarian Empire
Posted · Edited by GdC26
It strikes me that hese are the issues to be resolved.
Latching on to the 1908 date doesn't resolve them (in fact, according to Tomas, Popov in 1908 was just an engineer, and started to fly only in 1908), nor does emphasizing that the skill of hand engraving is dying out, or that in 40 years of collecting (most of us, including myself, meet that threshold, not that it means much) you have never seen a similarly forged badge.
Identification of an Austrian aviator who attended the Wright brother's Paris' flight school and who served in the war as an aviator and survived it might, as might establishing when this badge first hit the market (if that was ten years ago when the Russian collection market was extremely hot, that could certainly be a red flag - Popov may not be well known in the West, but that may be different in Russia). Any evidence on those issues could perhaps help to progress this discussion on the facts, rather than on conviction and belief.
Kind regards,
Sandro