GdC26

I'll ask my friend to comment by reference to the pics you posted. As noted, he earlier told me that good, unmarked crosses do exist, but he asked for pics which you now have posted.

3 hours ago, graham said:

I think the manufacturing mark is 'Vince Mayer & Sons from Vienna', but seeing the medal will help.

That is of course correct Graham - but overture1812's question is about one without markings, which do exist, I gather, but pics will be needed to confirm authenticity or otherwise.

Graham is right - please post pics. A good friend of mine who is very knowledgable on these says unmarked good grosses exist, but to be sure we (he) would need to see it.

10 minutes ago, 1812 Overture said:

I always have a question, how do you think that is your picture? (on the Internet)
For example, if a seller sells his photos on eBay, many people will see them and save them. Then you buy this photo, do you not allow others to use this photo?

I think it is common courtesy to use such pics for personal reference only, and not post them as if they were your own - in the end, another fellow collector has paid for them. often handsomely. I know the perspective on this may differ from culture to culture, and I also realize copyright in pics posted on e-bay vests in the seller, not in the buyer. But I think it is a matter of etiquette not to post what you don't own when it comes to pics bought by others. 

With pics posted on open source references, the etiquette in my view is slightly different - those you can re-post as long as you credit the owner. Of course, legal requirements may be stricter than that. 

On 03/08/2020 at 16:16, Chris Boonzaier said:

 

 

What irritates you about imperial ebay sellers?

The crap they offer as real? Good deals can still be had on e-bay, but they are now few and far between.

Yes, compliments, very well done

No, but I'd say late 50's/early 60's, from the looks of them.

49 minutes ago, GMU said:

Thank you Christophe and Walter!!

Hear hear!

I saw these pics on a social media forum and share them here as I thought the might be of interest.

Credits go to fellow member Andreas Schulze Ising and @Phil Slack

What is it supposed to be?

It certainly has a very unusual shape, plate and Feldzeichen look crude, and it seems to be a mixture of EM (cockarden, Feldzeichen) and officer rank (chin scales) items. Compare to: https://ageofkingsmilitaria.com/prussian-jaeger-officer-shako-ensemble-parade-with-original-case

https://www.weitze.net/cgi-bin/suche/suche.pl?q=tschako

Personally, I would pass on it. 

BTW, it is fairly easy (and actually fun and educational) to do this kind of research yourself. Simply check out some of the dealer sites will give you a feel of whether the item in hand is problematic. It will not tell you with certainty if it is real - but the issues identified above are readily identifiable with a simple web search.

And I see Simi responded to your original post the same day you asked for opinions (basically noting similar points to those set out above) - so what is the panic about? 

Regards, 

Sandro

28 minutes ago, waldo said:

No, the list does not include matrikelnumbers. The number at the 
end is the number under which the member of the MMJO is listed 
in this booklet. See above.

The only published matriculation numbers known to me so far are 
in the Schrettinger.

Unfortunately my English is not good and I have to rely on Google. 
I'll try it again:

This booklet was published by the order in 1927 and distributed to 
the members. This includes all officers awarded the MMJO in 
alphabetical order with their deeds. Furthermore you can see the 
ranking within the individual classes. I attach the table of 
contents as an attachment.

Vielen Dank, Waldo, alles Klar und Ihr English ist sehr gut verständlich.

Excellent contribution Waldo, thank you. So the Verzichnis Nrn. in the list match the Matrikelnr. of the MJO bestowed on the person listed?

2 hours ago, GMU said:

Thank you Christophe and Sandro. I had seen this wonderful thread with the list of recipients. As a matter of fact, I searched everywhere to see If I find the list with Matrikelnummern and recipients, but could not find any such thing.

For example von Epps MJ3 numbered 286 was awarded two times before him, once in the 1800’s. Kramer list this as MMJO Nr. 118

So, any idea on how to research a particular piece, say 286, and come up with the name of its 3 recipients? I would really like some help with this.

One more thing, all MJ3’s were numbered, and this number was unique right? I mean there were no two number X repeated Right?

it seems that the low numbered pieces that I have seen like 1, 33, etc, all were WW1 manufacture. So would this mean that there was no number 1, 33, etc produced in the 1800,s , or that the piece was no longer available, and a WW1 piece made to replace it?

In the case of von Epp’s the 1800 build piece was passed among 3 holders. However, could it be true that MJ3 number 1 was made two times. The 1800’s piece which at sometime became unavailable thus needing a 1914 piece also marked 1.

this is really confusing to me. I wish I could learn more....

 

 

Pleasure. I discussed the question of matching matrikelnumbers to recipients with Andreas Thies some time ago, and gather that ended, one has to go to the archives. I also understood high Martrikelnumbers to exist: that would argue against resistance of pieces using the old numbers. 

Thies just auctioned von Bothmer's MMJO knights cross with case and document. That cross had number 33, and according to he catalogue description, had been issued before to Ritter von Hopfner. in that context, he refers to Rudolf von Kramer, p74, presumably a reference to Virtuti Pro Patria

Is there a specific cross/Matrikelnumber you are researching? If so, can you share?  Thies, for example, has sold a fair number of identified MMJO's over time - perhaps a search of his catalogues can help tie a Matrikelnumber to an awardee?

Here are the lists I think Christophe refers to: 

They give award numbers, though, not Matrikelnummern from a quick glance.

2 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

Thank you, Sandro.  I also find it very interesting when I see something I have never seen before.  Have you ever seen the unusual rank-device on the gendarm's collar tabs above??  I will continue trying to find-out exactly what a laurel leaf with berries with on an NCO's braided parolin represents, but maybe somebody here knows what it is.  I am speculating, that since the portrait was taken in Máramaros, Transylvania, and that there existed a Transylvanian Gendarmerie Division of the Royal Hungarian Gendarmerie, that MAYBE this gendarm was a member of that unit.  This is, of course, only speculation.  Simi.   

Pleasure Simi. Like you, I've never seen it - but if time permits this weekend I'll take out the books and if I find anything I'll share it here. Sandro

5 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

I have enlarged your close-up picture of the collar (see picture below) and what I see is quite astonishing.  I have never seen such a device on a K.u.K collar tab before.  It looks like a leaf with some berries clustered around the lower stem.  I must check my reference books to find out what this could represent.  In the meantime, I have posted a picture of the Gendarmerie's collar tabs in the period of the Austro-Hungarian Empire below. 

There were sub-branches of the Royal Hungarian Gendarmerie that were responsible for patroling areas within the Kingdom of Hungary where the population had non-Hungarian speaking residents.  A few examples include:  the Horvát-Szlovén Csendőrség (Croatian/Slovenian Gendarmerie Division) the Bosznia-Herczegovina Csendőrség, and the Erdély Csendőrség (Siebenburgen Gendarmerie Division) so maybe this unusual rank-device that looks like a laurel leaf with berries is from one of those branches under the command of the Royal Hungarian Gendarmerie.  Honestly, I am realy not sure.   

Simi.

Very interesting post Simi, thanks for this.

Graham is right, that’s the one I had in mind. I think it looks a bit strange, though and I don’t recognize the ‘“fm” mark, so as said, it would be good if we could see the whole item.

Looks like a Austrian 750 silver mark to me, but the shape seems a bit weird. It may help if you post a pic showing the entire object.

You did well, Chris, congrats.

On 18/07/2020 at 15:36, Chris Boonzaier said:

The Blue Bavarian Litewka is a pretty scarce item, simply because, in the postwar years and depression, it was probably the MOST suited uniform jacket for civilian conversion. For that reason you probably see a dozens of Fieldgrey tunics, jacket, blouses for every Litewka.

On the left is an unusual one with no breast pocket. Very occasionally when you see photos of groups of officers, do you see one without a breat pocket,

In the middle is one which belonged to v. Leonrod, ex Cavalry Officer then Flügeradjutant fo Prinz Ludwig, then Oberstallmeister to King Lüdwig III (The Bavarian equivalent to the British Royal Court's "Master of the Horse") then finally Obersthoffmeister (Lord Chamberlain) for King Ludwig III

Then the Überrock for von Leonrod with the Velvet collar of the Flügeladjutant.

v. Leonrod can be seen on both period photos below as part of Ludwig's entourage (He is both times on the right with the "Seen" in green)

Last photo I saved some time ago, i am not sure who it belongs to...

So you got the Leonrod pieces? Congrats Chris.

I think I first posted that last pic in hte Castell thread - it is either from my collection or from the web, I'd need to check. 

Sandro

18 minutes ago, Simius Rex said:

Hi Sandro,  not that it matters because the bar is not genuine, but the fourth ribbon represents the Wuerttemberg Silver Merit Cross with Swords on account of the thin black stripe in the middle.  In other words, it's not the Order of the Crown.  They should have used silver swords to represent the combattant version of the Silver Merit Cross.

I began my post by mentioning the unlikelihood of this NCO's award (instituted in 1915) being next to 3 officer's awards from Wuerttemberg and the Red Eagle Order.  For me, this one award is what makes absolutely no sense on the bar.  In my opinion, and with a little imagination, you could logically explain the rest of the ribbons by simply assuming the assembler placed the RAO and the Austrian Merit Cross in the wrong position. Cheers, Simi.   

Thanks Simi, I've learned something. Cheers, Sandro

4 minutes ago, Deruelle said:

Hi Sandro

A little mistake with the REO. it is with crown and bow not S for swords ?

Christophe

 

Thanks Christophe, I used the "S" to denote Schleife (and ignored the crown), but forgot that it was used for Schwerter. My bad. 

Cheers, Sandro

Daniel, 

Do you agree with the ID of the combo set out above?  

Best, 

Sandro

7 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

So... the Wuerttemberg Silver Merit Cross with Swords, which was instituted in 1915 for senior NCOs, was awarded to a soldier who also received the Wuerttemberg Military Merit Order, the Berthold Order, the Franz Josef Order, and the Friedrich Order during the war ??  He was an NCO in 1915 (???) and subsequently promoted to officer when he received these high honors ??? 

 He received the very prestigious Red Eagle Order with Bow on the Ribbon during peacetime, presumably before WW1, which actually occupies the wrong place on the bar as Deruelle already pointed out. 

Frankly, I don't have a very good feeling about this bar. 

You mention this is a bar from a picture of a tunic in a book.  Sometimes uniform collectors have bars made to order because they don't want to spend big money for a prop.  Could this be one of those? Simi. 

 

 

Simi, I hink you're right that the bar may have been made for collector purposes (and think so mostly because of the strange combination of decorations and the order in which they are mounted, an issue also flagged by Christophe) but why the Silver Merit cross with swords?

I "read" the bar as: 

- EK II with 1914 Spange

- WMVO knightscross;

- Württemberg Friedrichsorden, knights cross (presumably 1st class) with swords;

- Orden der Württembergische Krone, knights cross with swords (which I thought came before the WFO);

-  Baden, Orden Berthold des Ersten with Swords (?), which if correctly identified, I would expect to come after the PROA3mS

- PROA3mS, which strikes me as an unusual award for a Württemberg senior officer;

-Osterreich, Goldenes Verdienstkreuz mit Krone (again unusual on a foreign bar - I would expect an FJO or given rank, ÖEK);

-as Christophe noted, commemorative ribbon of 1870-71

- Zentenarmedaille;

_ Chinadenkmünze

- Kolonialdenkmünze

Charles, have you asked Helmut for his views of the bar (not exactly the thing of highest value in this particular offering), or for pics of the back?

7 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

.

The pic is not from a book, it ifs from Helmut Weitze's site: https://www.weitze.net/militaria/60/Wuerttemberg_Feldbluse_M_1910_fuer_einen_Generalmajor__358660.html. As the description mentions, the tunic (including, from memory, the ribbon bar) are featured in Baldwin and Fisher's field grey book, which shows pieces that mostly come out of the well documented, beautiful and very extensive Marshall V. Daut collection. A bit of a coy way to ask a question ....

Sandro 

4 hours ago, Bayern said:

Adler 1 If iam not wrong you have a Saxon uniform in your woderful collection . I saw a Saxon hussar uniform . 

Bayern, Adler 1 passend away. Kind regards, Sandro