Ross Mather

I'm not so sure Dave. I agree with you to some degree, but there are still many of good old and genuine truncheons to be had by the new collector from various locations especially in the UK. I hear people say about getting caught out by fakes.....but in reality....I have rarely seen any? I think that mindset may have grown those that were made a couple of decades ago, and advertised for sale in the Police Review. They were so obviously new and sold as such. Its a little like saying to not buy old badges because there are a few re-strikes here and there....but the vast majority are authentic. My problem has arisen dealing with a well known retired police officer hat collector in Germany.....who agreed a swap deal...and who I TRUSTED. We exchanged photos. The photo he sent me, it looked genuine and authentic AND I was assured that it was authentic. He has laid the blame firmly at my door, saying that I should have first researched it from the photo. Not possible as he could not provide full details of the motto etc. Now that the exchange has taken place, and I find his truncheon is not what was first thought......he has basically said to me....'tough...you swapped it'. He has refused point blank to have our exchange items returned to each other. I have emailed him a couple of times but does not afford me the courtesy of a reply. I will sleep soundly at night and live with this bad experience (my first with a collector in Germany) and shrug it off as just one of lifes experiences. If he so desperately needed the Welsh Chief Constables cap he was after....then I hope that he enjoys it being in his collection and website. To me, he will always be...... a man with no integrity.

We are both from the same profession which to me makes it even worse!!!! I have collected for 45 years and like to think that I am pretty switched on....and yes.....trust means everything to me. I have done many deals from all over the world.......often relying on trust and honesty....especially from colleagues from different countries. My good name would be more important than adding one item to my collection. Sadly, it would seem that not everyone believes in being honourable and honest or doing what is right. I can live with it having to remain with me. My good name remains intact. As a collector, I would hate it for anyone to associate my name as anything but totally honest and completely trustworthy. That obviously does not seem to bother some collectors....and they are very few and far between I'm glad to say.

Ah well.....I contacted the German cap collector in Germany who I got this from. I exchanged two (one rare) caps for what I now understand to be a fake truncheon. His reply.......it seems as though it is my fault for not researching it from the emailed photo which he sent to me - before exchange took place. He has refused to return the authentic items that I sent to him and thereby allowing me to return the fake item. All collectors.....just be very careful in dealing with a Mr. Gausmann (cap collector) in Germany.

Seen enough to convince me its time to negotiate a return of the items that I exchanged for it.

Thanks....yes have found a few bits. What is baffling me is the fact that the arms a re painted and not a transfer?

Polsa (sorry do not know your name). I have scoured ebay for ages but cannot find anything with the same coat of arms. Would you be able to give me a clue please, where I can view these items. Thanks............Ross

Hi again Mervyn. Just got that truncheon out again, and have gone over it with a magnifier (x30). I am of the opinion that this is a genuine piece. Having collected for 45 years....I would not get caught with a fake. As you know, you just cannot replicate real genuine use-age and real age. The multiple minute marks and tiny little chips (not visible to the naked eye) in the paint and wood that really are minuscule and edges of which are obviously of some age. As you know, that can't be 'applied'. False application of age is quite crude and so very obvious. Again, I have studied the paintwork......and it is most definitely, 100% - not a transfer. Under magnification I am able to see the ends of the brush strokes, and there is height to the paint application, and minor nips and nicks in the paint....oil based I think. Needs a lot more research Mervyn, but I am not convinced that its anything other than a period piece. You asked about the 'nails'. They are in fact very small brass tacks.The collector I had it from assures me he has had it in his collection for many years. Will update you when I find out more. It was suggested to me that these items with the same coat of arms, came from the sale of a deceased s country estate. Bye for now.......Ross wishes...........Ross

Ive spent ages searching ebay but cant find anything with the same coat of arms? Can you give me an idea please what is on there with the same arms. Thanks..........Ross

/Thanks.....How interesting!!! Definitely exactly the same coat of arms. Wonder if anyone can come up with the answer?

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6668-0-71751500-1408302185.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6668-0-62908400-1408302218.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6668-0-56034100-1408302277.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6668-0-81418200-1408302329.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6668-0-23498100-1408302352.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-6668-0-51977900-1408302372.jpg Hello Mervyn. I have recently acquired this truncheon for my collection. The first picture shows 'before' and the rest of the photos 'after' I spent some time cleaning off the grime of a century and a half or two. Unusually long....24 inches, and flush fitted into it, near top just above the arms, is an inserted tacked in brass ring, with stamped letters VR. The letters VR may have been a later addition? as my gut feeling is that this truncheon is a little earlier. The painting has been done by someone very skillful. The arms have supporters both sides of rampant lions. The scroll at the bottom says AIMEZ VERITE. The quartered shield shows 1. Ermine 2. Spread eagle. 3. Spread eagle 4. Three Fleur de Lys. I would value your expert opinion and that of anyone else who may be able to shed any light on its origins. Thanks............Ross

Yes, its a strange combination of items! Believe it or not, I paid less than three figures for the lot! The box has nice quality brass handles and If you look at the photo Mervyn, you can see the metal loop at the very top of the crown. The loop is sitting sideways on, so you can't see that its a metal loop ....the type a chain runs through.

I have not had the helmet plate tested Mervyn but could well be silver. I have only ever seen one photograph of the helmet plate on an officers helmet. I had never seen the actual badge before, nor know of another one in existence. It was actually a purchase on Ebay, that not many people bid on!!! I prepared myself for a very expensive bidding war.....which just did not happen and luckily, I picked it up very cheaply. Just goes to show that you can still find rare items. The other group of items came from the same source as the Liverpool River Police badge.....and was a sell off by the family of a gentleman who had passed away. Ross

Thank you so much for that information Mervyn. If one need to know....the leading authority on truncheons and tipstaffs will always come up trumps. I could not work out why the tiny tipstaff had a metal loop on the end? You have answered that for me......for fitting to a chain? Something like an 'Albert chain' I would presume? The guy I had it from said it was owned previously by a Superintendent in Lancashire....and was someone who was quite recent. It was suggested to me that the items were 'possibly' Mayoral, but unfortunately, there is no provenance. The central large tipstaff really is good quality - the crown and shaft are designed to allow them to separate. Ross

I only spoke a few times with Reg....but as you rightly point out, an absolute mine of information. Many years ago, I picked up a decorated truncheon to the River Don Police......which I had never heard of. He gave me a full account of history of that small force, which was absorbed into a railway company in 1850.

Another recent acquisition. Came as a group...a pre 1904 'blank centre' kepi badge, tunic buttons, epaulette badges, collar Divisional letter and numbers. The Glamorgan Constabulary added the Dragon motif to the centre of their cap / kepi / helmet badges after 1904. Also photographed is a badge I picked up last year --- a very rare senior officers pre 1904 helmet plate with Prince of Wales feathers motif centre.

An interesting purchase from a couple of months ago, and purchased as one Lot. Attached on the inside of the lid is a miniature tipstaff and lions head cape fastening. The other items were in the box. One ....a large wooden ceremonial type tipstaff that sits horizontally on its own stand.....and the two other truncheons. I was told that the box belonged to a retired Superintendent in the Lancashire Constabulary.

One of my recent acquisitions. Liverpool River Police white metal badge. The badge has double holes for stitching it onto a tunic. A very rare badge of a police force which existed only between 1864 and 1920. Available for swapping for anything Welsh that I do not have in my collection.

I was very disappointed when I contacted the seller in the first instance to say that the badge had never existed in the history of the Glamorgan Constabulary. He thanked me and said he would 'notify the winning bidder'. Naughty to say the least!!! But whoever won it obviously returned it to him as it has a appeared on ebay again. Its obviously a more modern Glamorgan helmet badge with the original QCor maybe KC crown cut off and a Victorian style crown re-fitted and then given a thick coating of black to hide the join.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post-6668-0-65379800-1388517787.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post-6668-0-35301900-1388517803.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post-6668-0-88067000-1388517820.jpg This is the other Fire Brigade helmet in my collection - Manchester Fire Brigade leather Fire helmet made by JAS Hendry of Glasgow. The Manchester pattern had the side brass diamonds. I believe it is pre WWII. The brass badge is a replacement. Stamped into the leather at the neck protector are the names, HENDRY / W.A.SCOTT and the number14. Some Brigades had specific patterns for their helmets. Hendry was a small firm based in Glasgow in Scotland.The company is well known for manufacturing leather fire helmets. The entire range of leather helmets were available with white metal, brass or no trim variations although there wasn't a price difference between brass and no trim.

Has appeared on ebay again from the same seller. He has admitted that this appears to be a fake, made up badge that has had a crown removed and another fixed in its place. Could be a KC Glamorgan Constabulary helmet plate, painted black with the addition of a Victorian period crown. Someone went to a lot of trouble to make up what appears to be a fake badge. Just proves that you have to be careful what you are buying.

Hi Mervyn. This wasn't posted by me. Ross

Hello Patrick......You may be interested in taking a look at my collection on my website www.britishpolicehelmet.co.uk I had moved on some of the helmets which were of little interest to me, but my main interest is Welsh. I got the SWB Volunteer Officers helmet a couple of years ago in a swap deal. I am more into police helmets, but always keen to add anything which is just an interesting item of headwear.....hence the 3rd Dragoons helmet and the old Fire Brigade Chiefs helmet. Best wishes.............Ross

I am not sure how many tipstaffs you have seen Brian, but the wood ones are without any doubt made over the centuries from a varied selection of woods, and are of all weird and wonderful shapes....without any common conformity to shape size or design. Lignum would not necessarily be the wood that was chosen. I have photographed another of mine with light coloured wood. Wood is nicely finished....but poorly cast crown.....as many of the original ones are. The brass castings were not always top of the range.They would have been made from all types of wood. I suppose, as was the case with decorated truncheons, it depends on the skill level of who produced an item. Some were made by highly skilled workers who produced a high class product. Some, by lesser skilled people who would have produced items at a lower level on the scale. This could have been done at a local level, rather than go to the expense of sending off for a much more and highly expensive item......we'll never know, but I am happy that its a genuine item. Seems that we will have to be poles apart on our opinions.

I tend to disagree Brian. I am assuming that you say that the screws cannot be very old because of the assumption that all screws were hand made??? In 1770, English instrument maker, Jesse Ramsden (1735-1800) invented the first satisfactory screw-cutting lathe. Ramsden inspired other inventors. In 1797 a chap in England invented a large screw-cutting lathe that made it possible to mass-produce accurately sized screws. Out of curiosity, I removed two screws from the hinges. They are blunt ended and the thread is quite widely spaced.....in my opinion consistent with old screws...if modern, I would have expected to see them sharply pointed, with a tightly formed thread. I would be interested in hearing why you consider the box modern? Brass furniture hinges were capable of being manufactured of the highest quality even in the 17th / 18th centuries. I would be interested in Mervyn's opinion on your view that the wood 'is not consistent' with period made tipstaffs? Do not understand the logic in that Brian. What woods would you suggest would not have been used? The wood is very good quality and heavy. As I was examining it more closely, I have discovered that the dark half of the wood....is in fact.....a wood stain....not a two tone wood. When purchased in auction, this was one of about 15 mainly George III and William IV truncheons, tipstaffs and three ....early rattles. I am not convinced that this was one modern piece in amongst a box full of everything else which was very old. After 45 years of collecting old and period British law enforcement itmes, I am pretty good at spotting things which are not 'right'. I am not convinced its modern Brian, but would be pleased to know how you recognise it as modern. Best wishes..............Ross

I have searched many coats of arms Mervyn that are likely to contain a castle scene. However the 'castle' scene on the tipstaff is quite unusual in its design....especially as the three 'turrets'....all have sets of steps at their base. Its a very specific design and have not found similar on any searches.By the way....what type of value would you put on this. I have to admit not being up on tipstaffs. This came in a large box of many items. Thanks.......Ross