drspeck

On 10/03/2021 at 18:04, Utku said:

Hi, folks!

I am creating my first topic. So firstly, I would like to thank you for accepting me. I am a young guy from Turkey. I love history, especially: WW1, Turkish War of Independence and WW2. I would like to meet any one to inform each other about history&politics. Now, after introducing my self to you, I would like to ask my question:

I used to collect Third Reich awards but I sold my collection recently because there was no pattern in the way I collect. I was just buying the things I liked. Also, since it is extremely hard to find Third Reich awards for sale in Turkey, it was so expensive to buy. Now this summer I have a change to visit Germany. I assume I can find cheap Third Reich medals there. I was planning to collect “Schutzwall-Ehrenzeichen” or “Kriegsverdienstmedaille” because I believe they are the cheap ones; but the problem is, because I want to collect professionally, I believe I need to learn manufacturers; you know, they stamp their numbers on the chain between medal and ribbon. Can anyone please tell me all of their manufacturers’ numbers? So I can collect all of them. Thank you so much.

 

Best regards, from Turkey

Dear Utku,

Welcome to the forum ??

You know that collections do not have to follow a pattern? Although I have a focus on particular items, there is a certain chaos in my collection to. I also love to pick up the items I like which do not necessarily fit my collection If your fun comes from picking up the pieces you like I can only advice you to buy the items you like and love.

If you do want to specialise in a certain subject, might I suggest you to find any reference books on the
subject matter to start with. I do not have any examples for you, but maybe other forum members know which books to look for?

Best regards,

Peter

Gentlemen,

I bear good news, I have found our man, and it was in the end thanks to the QSA.

Some days ago I reached out to David Biggins, the owner of the Anglo Boer War forum. He was not only kindly enough to reply to my email but also send me the original listing of the auction of the full sized medal bar of Adolphus of Teck - please see attached. The listing gives the exact 6 QSA clasps which are also on the miniature medal bar. My first thought was, what are the odds of finding someone else, my second thought was, if there is a listing of the full sized medal bar, maybe somewhere in the recesses of the internet there may also be a past auction listing of the miniature medal bar to Adolphus... and that's what I found - please see the other attachment. Listing 801, catalogue no. 36, as sold by Morton and Eden in 2008. The original catalogue can be found on the Morton and Eden website under 'past auctions'.

This off course still leaves us with the question, where is the Order of the Bath?

Best, Peter

Dear all,  thank you all for the excellent additional information  A late 1930's date sounds logical given the information as presented here and the fact that the bar does look like a German style bar. At least I now know what the first ribbon represents and how this curious combination of ribbons might have come to be

I'll add a note with this information to the bar

5 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

The first ribbon is Czechoslovakian.  It is known as the Czechoslovakian Volunteer Combatants Cross of 1918 – 1919.

The medal was introduced in 1920 and was awarded to the volunteer combatants who fought to protect the frontiers of the newly established Czechoslovakia during the period of 1918-19, mainly against the Hungarian Bolshevik forces of Bela Kun. 

So your man was most likely a Czech who formerly served in the Austro-Hungarian Army. 

To see the Hungarian Commemorative Medal for Combattants of the Great War on this ribbon bar is both shocking and funny at the same time.  The Czechs and the Slovaks hated the Hungarians and vice versa.   

Many thanks  that volunteer cross makes it an interesting combo ?

There is a nice article on the eid mar coins on the following website:

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/59762

If you're interested in archaeology, this is by the way a really nice website. It usually has a new article every day on a current archaeological topic.

Best,

Peter

45 minutes ago, paul wood said:

yes would have worn a mini bath also his romanian award although not his german or austrian we are looking at someone of royal lineage who popped his clogs in the 20s i wonder if any of the fitzclarences (william ivs bastard brood) could fit the bill.

p

With German ribbon bars, you see personal prefences play a role in what is displayed or not. Does that also happen in British bars?

The only Fitzclarence who could qualify is Aubrey FitzClarence, 4th Earl of Munster (1862–1928), but he held the office of Gentleman Usher-in-Ordinary to Queen Victoria from 1885 to 1901 and to King Edward VII from 23 July 1901 until 7 February 1902, so at least no QSA, but also no other mention of awards.

19 hours ago, paul wood said:

peter I thought of adolphus of Teck but i thought he also had a gcb.

paul

Paul, you are right.

His wiki page states his GCB was a Knight Grand Cross. I am not familiar with the rules in the UK concerning how orders can be worn, but would he have been allowed to wear his Grand Cross as a (miniature) medal?

By the way, this is a cropped pre-ww1 image of him (looks just before ww1) with all his orders up to that point.

Best, Peter

18 minutes ago, laurentius said:

I find it rather peculiar that Charles Edward, Duke of Albany (later Carl Eduard, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha) isn't mentioned in the guestlist (his mother is, his father had passed away before the jubilee). Claudio owns one of his ribbonbars so we know he did atleast receive it. This may show us that the list is incomplete, although I must say that for a Wikipedia-article the document is well-written and has proper links to the many noble attandees, which is usually problematic given the tendency to have several princes at different times with the same names (thank God Prince Heinrich XXXIII of Reuß wasn't on the guestlist ?).

It's a lovely miniature bar, and I hope we find the owner.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Laurentius, thank you for your comments. It's a very good observation. It means a possible candidate must be a very strong match.

Talking about candidates, in the past few days I have been searching for possible candidates. I checked all the male participants of the British Royal Family who were present as Royal Guests at the Jubilee celebration of 1887 (wiki), that is the ones that are mentioned ?. Next I did a cross reference with the recipients of the Royal Victorian Order (wiki), that is the ones that can be found via the lists on wikipedia ?. I filtered out all persons with 1) different orders and medal and 2) with dates of death prior to around 1917/1918 (because of the ww1 medals) or after 1932 (because of the check by Paul on the Order of Leopold).

Based on the available information I can find only one name: Prince Adolphus, Duke of Teck (wiki)

He makes for a compelling candidate:
- Photos picture him with the Order of St Michael and St George, the QSA with 6 clasps and the jubilee medal with 1897 clasp. Recipient of the Royal Victorian Order.
- Military attache at the British embassy in Vienna, which could explain the Order of St Michael and St George.
- His wikipedia page states he received the Belgian Order of Leopold, French Croix de Guerre and French Legion of Honneur
- Died 1927

Would be awesome if based on this name the QSA clasps could be matched (or not ?, which would mean I have to start over ?). Are there QSA sources where a name can be checked and/or does someone has access to such a source?

Best, Peter

3 hours ago, paul wood said:

died prior to 1932 found a couple of near misses but not the man.

P

Paul, thanks for checking I will assume a date of death prio to 1932.

2 hours ago, paul wood said:

I doubt it. I think the solution lies on who received the gold 1887 with 97 clssp. obviously the entire British Royal Family alive in 87 and 97 and several European Heads of state receved it so they can be ruled out. Add in the RVO that narrows it down and the St Michael and George would suggest they hrld a senior dilomstic post or a governor generalship. If he was still alive in 1932 then I will be able to identify him as I have a book in the office issued for the centenary of the order of leopold which lists all living recipients including non-belgian. If he is not there then at least we know he popped his clogs prior to then.

p

 

 

Paul, if you have the opportunity, please do check for the order of Leopold. In the meantime, I'll go through the list of royal guests at the golden jubilee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Jubilee_of_Queen_Victoria).

Thanks, Peter

21 hours ago, paul wood said:

Interesting. Certainly awarded to nobility with gold 1887 Jubilee with 97 clasp.  6 clasp QSA Victorian Order And Michael and George must be some one intetesting. Nice group.

p

Dear all,

I've been looking at the lists of the recipients of the Royal Victorian order on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order) and I can find only 3 possible matches, 3 princes. Do we know if these lists on Wikipedia are complete?

Also, is there anywhere, a source and/or a website, where I can get the 6 clasp QSA checked out? Is for example the angloboerwar.com website a place to post this bar?

Best, Peter

2 hours ago, Daniel Krause said:

Very nice bar!

Congrats!

 

Theodor Wiegand,

bavarian Hauptmann der Landwehr, prussian geheimer Regierungsrat.

Archeologist

1864-1936

 

Bar is made by Godet.

 

Best,

Daniel

Daniel, that's very cool many thanks

It's a real coincidence, I've been an amateur archeologist for over 25 years... very cool to read about his archaeological exploits

On 30/07/2020 at 05:56, 03fahnen said:

The pin is assembled with original ribbons and I think that only the crowns of the 2 and 5 medal are copies, which I got later.

Hi. The wreaths on ribbons 2 and 5 look original to me. Some of my bars also have these. They can be found in plain and in enameled condition.

Nice uniform set up by the way, must have taken a lot of time and work to assemble ??

Best, Peter

Hi.

Could you show the entire bar back and front?

This device does not scare me by the way although it is a bit crude and rarely seen - I've only seen one other example in the past years. Patina and wear look o.k. to me. For me ribbon bars are as much about variation as they are about following regulation.

Best,

Peter

38 minutes ago, laurentius said:

Hello Peter,

This isn't necessarily true, there were some oberleutnants who received the RAO4 but you also had colonels who had slaved away for 20 years before they got their RAO4. 3rd class could mean a full colonel yes, but it could also be higher than that.

I agree that the person to whom this ribbonbar belonged most likely received the 2nd class.

Yes, but only if he was Prussian, if he wasn't Prussian I believe the bow was given after having held the class for a number of years. I'm not entirely sure about this though, so the input of someone who collects RAO's would be appreciated.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Laurentius,

It helps, thanks for the extra info

Best,

Peter

23 minutes ago, Daniel Krause said:

Hello Peter, 

 

Nice one!

I would guess, thats a Navy bar of a full captain or Konteradmiral.

The Red Eagle 3 with bow And Crown was awarded only 315 times.

136 of them were still in whatever kind of Uniform in WW1.

 

Best,

Daniel

Daniel,

That's a low number, thanks for the info

Best,

Peter

Dear all,

I picked up this small trapezoid bar some time ago, which has:

- RAO3 with bow and crown
- Long service cross
- Centenary medal

There is not much to go on here, but I found this old thread from Rick explaining a few things:
https://gmic.co.uk/gallery/image/977-bow-tie-prussian-red-eagle-order-3rd-class/

Based on the thread a few questions:
- Because of the bow this person had already received the 4th class?
- 3rd class would normally mean a full colonel?
- The bar does not have a Crown order 3rd class. If I assume correctly on the thread
than this guy was a major general whose crown order, to quote Rick,
"[...] had "moved on and up" to a commander grade"?

What would the naval equivalent be? And does anyone also have the award numbers for this combination?

Best,

Peter

14 hours ago, P.F. said:

Not necessarily. If your guy was in the Police between the Wars and rejoined the Army he could have 25 years service and would not be listed in the Rank List. Just something to consider.

Kind regards,
Pierce

Pierce, I will. Are there any other sources besides the ranklist to check?

2 hours ago, dedehansen said:

Hi Peter,

my bet is:

Militärverdienstmedaille Bayern

Militärverdienstkreuz 2 X ? Bayern

Verdienstkreuz Gold X Österreich

 

Kind regards

Andreas

Andreas, the Verdienstmedaille is also something to check. It is one of the orders in the 1925 ranklist so I will also check the ranklist for this combo. 

Good suggestions

Dear all,

I have this ribbon bar with an MMJO, which came from Zeige some time ago. I haven been looking for this recipient ever since.

I recently picked up a copy of the 1925 Ranklist. Assuming the golden eagles represent continuous service since 1918 and ribbon 4 represents the OM3K (Militärverdienstkreuz mit Kriegsdekoration ), I figured our guy could and should be found in the 1925 ranklist. After going through the 1925 ranklist -twice- I found two names with the exact combination (BMJ3/BM4x/OM3K):

Ritter von Thoma
Ritter von Weber

My most important questions would be, are my assumptions correct and could I have missed anyone? 

Best,

Peter

18 hours ago, P.F. said:

What a bar! Congrats on the ID Peter.

Kind regards,
Pierce

Thnx

7 minutes ago, JohanH said:

Heinrich Sheuch was awarded the commander 2nd class of the Swedish order of the sword on 20 October 1912.

4 minutes ago, Great Dane said:

The Griffin MG2b would be a 'Komtur' (neck cross).

Impressive bar and impressive research!

 Thanks, this explains why I could not connect these to the ribbon bar

Dear all,

With the kind help from Daniel Krause and Paul Chepurko this bar has been identified to be from Generalleutnant Heinrich Schëuch (Charakter als General der Infanterie). His bio and promotions can be found here:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schëuch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Scheuch

He can be found in the 1914 rank list on page 8 as Director of the central department (Zentral-Departement) of the War Ministry. He was one of the last ministers of war of Prussia. In the attachment his 1914 rank list entry. I'm not yet proficiant in this but I'll give it a try - these are the orders from his 1914 rank list entry (please correct me if I'm incorrect or add info if/where necessary):

- Prussia Red eagle order 3rd class with bow and crown
- Prussia Crownorder 3rd class
- Prussia Long service cross
- Baden Order of Berthold 3rd class (BBi.3)
- Baden Zahringer lion 3rd class with oakleaves (BZ3bmE)
- Bavaria Order of Michael 3rd class (BM3)
- Bavaria Military merit cross 3rd class (BMV3)
- Lippe House order 2nd class (LDH2)
- Mecklenburg Order of the Griffin 2nd class (MG2b)
- Saxon Order of Albrecht 3rd class (SA3)
- Wurttemberg Order of the Crown 2nd class (WK2c)
- Bulgaria Order of Alexander 3rd class (BA3)
- Japan Order of the sacred treasure 3rd class (JZ3) (Orden des Heiligen Schatzes - Zuihosho)
- Austria Order of the Iron Crown 2nd class (OEK2)
- Romania Star of Romania 3rd class (RumSt3)
- Sweden Order of the Sword 2nd class (SS2b)

There must be reasons why some of these do not show up on this post-1918 ribbon bar:

- The Red Eagle order is not on this bar; was it upgraded to a cross to be worn around the neck? And hence is not showing on this bar?
- Was the Crown order upgraded with swords?
- Either the Order of Berthold or the Lippe House order was a cross, not a medal (one of these is not on this bar). Can anyone confirm?
- Was the order of the griffin an officers cross?
- Was the order of Albrecht upgraded with swords?
- Was teh Wurttemberg Order of the Crown upgraded with swords?

Please add information if available.

Best,

Peter