Bob

1977 - can you enlighten me (us)? You have the Lenin in your possession and have had research done on it?

Hello Dolf, yes I got it boxed - in the exact same box that you had it in when it was in your hands.

The Soyombo doesn't have the same eye candy appeal as say a SB or Lenin etc. but precisely because of its simplicity I think it is a timeless design. It'll never look "outdated" in my eyes.

The issue with it (just like say the unselfishness medal) is that unless substantial new reliable information becomes available from UB, it will be impractical to continue acquiring these as it (at least for me) has become virtually impossible too often to tell the good from the bad out there. Anyway, I'd rather have research / info from archives and then learn that SOME of my collection is "bad" than to have no research at all.

Hi Dolf, yep the "ugly" one is up top.

Of the list of SB's that I'm actively looking for (i.e. specific numbers) the two low numbers belong to the Sodnomdarjaa group (i.e. I have his early Soviet screwpost red banner, http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=36164&hl=sodnomdarjaa&st=0) and they are the ones I'd REALLY love to get my hands on. That'll undoubtedly be difficult though... SB's with that low numbers aren't on the market often, and certainly not at sane prices. E.g. collectrussia now as nr 607 for sale for 4900,- USD. In my eyes, that's really excessive in the current market... on the other hand, there's not another one for sale right now (aside from that pinback on eBay the other day) so who can blame Igor? Unforunately, pepoel do refer to his prices as the standard... so probably my SB collecting days are over, I'll be happy with what I have now. Although, there are still 1-2 items for which I'd break the bank... a hero star (i regret not bidding when one was up for auction a year ago) and a type 1 Polar Star for example.

Thanks for your other comments - I guess (and guess is all it is) that roughly 2100 "classic" SB's exist... time will tell:) SB's are amazingly beautiful, and one can only hope for someday also being able to research them!

Last one for now

again 373 for reference

And now back to 373 - type 1

Obverse

(again: 413 vs 420)

Flames look identical; so does the fact that the eyelet is slightly offcenter to the left on both

Remember, the weights of these 2 are different, yet they still look very very similar

Familiar (enought)?

Reverse

Not a very sharp picture, but here's (left to right)

- type 1: 373

- type 2: 413 + 420

Note - Vatjan in post 10 refers to the possibility of it being 415 instead of 115.

On type 2, I would suggest that 420 would not be "low" for type 2 but perhaps the "high".

OK, benefit of having my shoebox full of treasures in house today is I can really take the time to review / compare in detail.

I believe based on this and the comments in this thread that perhaps the small Hein Sonnenberg (who by the way, is also in touch with Battushig) catalogue is correct in that there are 3 types of Soyombos.

Type 1 - Such as referred to in above post quoting collectrussia. The well known 3-rivets version with dark enamel. Based on the thorough review of all Soyombo's online, I believe that there will have been 400 produced (and issued?). Lowest authentic one seen is the 24 on collectrussia, highest one - in my eyes - the 373 which I have posted. This 373 was acquired from a trusted dealer who gave me a lifetime guarantee. In my database of Soyombos i have 23 sightings in that range (24-373) and all authentic ones are type 1.

There does appear to be some variation... Ed quoted 41.35 and 41.25 grams (incl. suspension). My 373 is 39.0 grams (incl. suspension) and 32.3 excluding. This 32.3 is exactly on target with the collect russia nr 24. In other words, it could be that there is some manufacturing variation in between there (i.e. Ed's) which weigh a bit more.

Type 2 - I have taken my 420 (which can be traced back to the most reliable dealer possible in UB) and 413 and both match the type 2 shown in Battushigs book (CORRECTION: including the screwpost but not the screw itself, because that is not shown in Battushigs book; in any case the type 2 in Battushig is very different from the nr "223" shown by Ed). They are also - after close analysis in hand - virtually identical in terms of color enamel, general shape, and also dimensions (38.2 height incl. eyelet, 36.4 width). The suspensions are 100% identical incl. the diameter of the screw (2.8mm vs. 3.9mm on my type 1). Supposedly (Sonnenberg catalogue) this type is made out of red gold rather than yellow gold. There is an oddity, being that my 413 weighs less than my 420.

413: 32.4 gr / 25.0 gr (in/ex suspension)

420: 36.5 gr / 29.0 gr

This is because 413 is thinner. 413 which by the way also can be traced to the ultimate source in UB and, as we have seen with Type 1, manufacturing differences MAY potentially be the reason for weight differences. In my database I've seen no other potential speciments which match. I have seen Soyombo's wit numbers 425 and 432 but they are substantially different and raise many question marks (either fake or even more types than noted in this thread)...

ADDITION: I suspect (but cannot confirm) that the type 2 in Battushig may actually be nr 415 instead of 115 (as it is shown in the book). This would - if correct - provide a 3rd datapoint for the type 2 is proposed above. I believe (but could be wrong) that others have commented about Battushig purposefully changing this specific serial nr in his book?

Type 3 - I truely believe that the Soyombo misleadingly numbered 223 (in Ed's hands) is a type 3 (as indicated in Sonnenberg catalogue as gilt bronze) which - again - has been incorrectly numbered. I suspect the Soyombo on Sonnenberg's site is another such example (but left unnumbered). Bear in mind that there is a mismatch between the screws on the Sonnenberg example and the one Ed has. The type 3 appears to have considerably darker enamel on the suspension, much like type 1. Suspect this type is not numbered (generally).

I realize above is just my opinion. Fact is we have various Soyombo's out there with people (incl. me) stating that the source of them should indicate they are real. This creates some confusion but it also gives food for though in getting to a refined typology... for the moment, I'm sticking with 3 types. The weight of type 2 appears to support it also being substantially gold (not as much as type 1). Would be interesting to get a weight on Ed's nr 223 (maybe i missed it somewhere in the thread, will have another look) to support that it is just gilt bronze and substantially deviating from all others in weight.

Going to revisit the Soyombo - first, regardig type 1, a good "base" - an authentic one on collectrussia.com:

"Gold Soembo Medal of a Hero of Labor of Mongolian Peoples Republic, Type 1, Var 1, #24.

Medallion is in solid 14 K gold and enamel, suspension device is in gold plated silver and enamel. Engraved serial number to the reverse. Medallion weighs 32.3 g (not including suspension device), and measures 34.3 mm in width, 38.2 mm in height including the eyelet. This is the earliest type and variation of the Gold Soembo, featuring riveted medallion and darker, nicer quality blue enamel than on the later issues. The gold Soembo emblem on blue background stands for prosperity, intellectual power, honesty, etc. Beautiful cherry red enamel on the suspension device, spectacular quality throughout.

Very fine to excellent condition. The enamel on the suspension shows contact marks and minor surface flaking, no penetrating chips or repairs. The blue enamel in the center is nearly untouched. The gold rays show very little wear and their ridges are extremely crisp. The reverse is clean and nice. Includes original screw plate in gilded silver.

The Gold Soembo was the Mongolian equivalent of the Soviet "Hammer and Sickle" star of Hero of Socialist Labor. Between 200 and 300 of the early variation have been issued."

This place could use a bit of liveliness!

My box full of treasures is out of the vault and spending the night at home - here's a pic of some of it - my beloved SB's (6 screwbacks of which one with doc, 2 pinbacks, and one rather ugly "thing"):

Also, updated list of SB's which I am actively looking for in order to reunite with documents/group in my hands:

Order of Sukh Baatar 48

Order of Sukh Baatar 86

Order of Sukh Baatar 500

Order of Sukh Baatar 605

Order of Sukh Baatar 695

Order of Sukh Baatar 1770

Please PM me if you have any of the above SB's in your hands!

Reverse

Here for something deep in a shoe box in a bank vault, spending the night at my house before going back to a safe place tomorrow.

Socialist era hero star.

The heart of my very small Yemen collection!

http://mongoliashop.de/shop/article_3021/Medaille-50-Mongolische-Repubilk-f%C3%BCr-Ausl%C3%A4nder-_-Medal-50-years-Mongolian-Republuc-for-foreigners.html?shop_param=cid%3D19%26aid%3D3021%26

opinions?

http://www.mongoliashop.de/

Some interesting items for sure, not sure the prices seduce me to buy straight away but it's a free world :cheers:

"...or is it maybe a non-awarded one?"

Bob, aren't these still being awarded nowadays?

Well, at least that's the info I had a couple of years ago directly from the source... unless that changed in the meantime.

When I bought #2006, back in 2004 I guess, it was already out there, years before the bank thing...

Cheers,

Dolf

Hi Dolf, good to see you back

I guess (not sure off top of my head) they are still awarded. If they are, it still leaves the question: are they awarding "classic" SB's (using up old stock) or are they issuing new ones? And how many of those "classic" SB's are out there? Are the new ones identical to the classic ones? etc.

In any case, monstr is right: super order!

From your post, it would appear that your 2006 is an awarded one then... but it still leaves the question of when the bank thing happened and unawarded ones came on the market

To be clear, I do not own the "foreign" one.

However, and this will create some excitement among us Mongolia freaks, I have just been in contact with another Mongolia collector who ALSO has one of those foreign ones. Oh, and he bought it in Eastern Europe... roughly 35 years ago!!! Sounds to me like the benefit of the doubt should be on it being real. He mentioned the enamel looks high quality and aged.

:jumping:

And this is my   

Yeiks - that's a HIGH number!

Does the order show any wear, or is it maybe a non-awarded one?

Well, you still have many more collecting years ahead of you!

Imagine 10 years from now still coming here to GMIC to discuss mongolian awards - surely we'll have access to research by then? :blush:

Looking for the following:

Order of Sukh Baatar 48

Order of Sukh Baatar 86

Order of Sukh Baatar 605

Order of Sukh Baatar 695

Order of Sukh Baatar 1770

Please give a shout if you have either of these.

I am looking for the following:

Hero of Labor - Soyombo 424

Order of Sukh Baatar 48

Order of Sukh Baatar 86

Order of Sukh Baatar 605

Order of Sukh Baatar 695

Order of Sukh Baatar 1770

Order of the Red Banner of Combat Valor 75

Order of the Red Banner of Combat Valor 2622

Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor 106

Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor 2333

Order of Combat Valor 791

Order of Combat Valor 1079

Order of Polar Star 1762

Order of Polar Star 3538

Order of Polar Star 4860

Order of Polar Star 6299

Order of Polar Star 17167

Order of Polar Star 18046

Order of Motherhood - 1st class 2755

Order of Motherhood - 2nd class 327

Medal 25 Years of the MPR 549

Medal 25 Years of the MPR 10723

Medal We Won 21406

Medal We Won 29811

Medal We Won 45873

Medal of Honorary Combat 454

Medal of Honorary Combat 4096

Medal of Honorary Combat 4901

Medal of Honorary Combat 6123

Medal of Honorary Combat 6708

Medal of Honorary Labor 3011

Medal of Honorary Labor 5388

Medal of Honorary Labor 14585

Partisan Badge 11

Aha, the reason i thought it was is that in my serial number list the serial numbers were already identified and I had put your name behind it. Probably means I got the serial numbers from your original serial number list 4 years ago yet it wasn't actually in your possession. So... another collector sold it via Zeige (where I got it).